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Have been searching but can’t find a definitive answer. When amplifying a hollow body, are the nuances actually carried through the pickup to the amp?
I love the acoustic sound of my archtop. I would like to preserve it. I’m looking at the Mesa Rosette 2:Eight acoustic amp. But that’s pretty limiting (can’t use with solid body guitar-or, rather, I don’t like the sound of solid body guitars through it). So does it even matter when you’re just amplifying the pickups that are sensing the strings?
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01-31-2024 04:10 PM
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Amplifying archtops is a weird thing. Because basically the sound we associate with "electric" jazz guitar is an archtop plugged into a guitar amp, and that doesn't sound anything like an acoustic archtop does.
If you want to preserve the acoustic sound of the instrument, using a magnetic pickup, even through an acoustic amp, isn't really going to do it.
What's the guitar and pickup?
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It’s an Eastman AR810CE solid hollow body. Not the most glamorous guitar but I love how it sounds acoustically. It has the original Kent Armstrong pickups.
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The amp matters, regardless of what you're amplifying.
If you want to make the sound of your guitar louder you could stick a mic in front of it and use some sort of pre-amp and a powered speaker, a contact pickup of sorts, anything that picks up the acoustic sound. A regular guitar amp won't do either since the speakers in these are optimized for the signals from magnetic pickups. An amp dedicated for acoustic guitars would be more suitable.
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Others have spoken to 'acoustic VS electric' nicely. I'd say Yes to this part.
Originally Posted by jeremiahzellers
Anything that affects how the string vibrates will affect what the pickup 'hears'. It (and we) hear the difference between a metal TOM and a wooden bridge for EG.
It's often said that no two L5s sound the same. Why is that? I'd think it's mostly things that affect their acoustics: thickness of bracing and top for EG.
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If you had a two channel amp, Henriksen, Acoustic Image etc. You cold run the pickup into one channel and a mic into the other and then blend to taste. That might get you a nice mix of the two sound (which is what you actually hear in the room when you play a guitar like that through an amp at very low volume).
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Your Eastman is a carved solid wood Benedetto style guitar. So yea, some nice acoustic sound there and quite different from a Gibson ES175 or even a L5 CES. The Gibson's are great electrics, not so great acoustics. Something to consider when folks give advice on amplifying archtops.
What I've found amplifying this sort of guitar to get a more acoustic sound:
- 'Made by Kent Armstrong' and 'Kent Armstrong Hand Wound 12 pole' are not the same thing. The latter will give a much more acoustic sound when amplified. Not 'acoustic'.. it just does a better job opening up the sound. 'Woody' and 'open' may be what you're really after as opposed to getting to pure acoustic. Gibson 57 humbucker also works well and is a bit warmer but to my ears, lacks some of the detail the 12 pole provides. These would go through a traditional guitar amp.
- You need good EQ. Amp EQ usually sucks. EQ on guitar is just a roll off. An EQ pedal or preamp with good EQ helps dial in a more acoustic tone much better while also getting rid of a boomy bass without wrecking the whole low end. Also lets you adjust where you want the mid peaks.
- You can't put an acoustic flat top guitar pickup on your Eastman because there's no place to put it. Unless it's an oval hole.. then that's a viable path. I've done this with a Sunrise pickup and it sounds pretty good.
- You can install something like a K&K archtop pickup under bridge (inside the guitar) pickup. With the right electronics, these sound very acoustic and pretty good overall. They do require effective EQ to sound good.
- Under saddle Fishman piezo bridge may work OK with EQ. However, with something like an AudioSprockets ToneDexter, it may somewhat accurately reproduce the acoustic sound of your guitar. I have not done this.. keep meaning to. But I've heard it and it's reasonable given what the ToneDexter does for flat top pickups.
- Good clip on mics are expensive ($500 range) but work well. DPA makes a popular one. Several folks on this board use them and say they aren't as much trouble as it seems they would be.
There's other stuff.. Schertler makes pickups that stick on.. there are other flat top pickups that may work. But I have no experience with these.
On amplification.. yes.. with pure acoustic pickups you need an acoustic amplification rig. Lots of these available. You can also use a general full range speaker with a preamp in front of it. Finally, you can use an acoustic amplification setup with any electric by dropping an amp model / speaker IR in front of it. Works well for me.. some find it harder to dial in.
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This guy goes the extra mile and we can hear why :
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I've used the rosette for a few years and love it . Like all Mesa's ( I have a Boogie and a 800w bass amp of thiers) they do require tweaking to get the best sound. As I'm the sound tech at our club, the DI out to the board allows the extra flexibility . If I want a fuller sound , I just hook up a 2x10 cab I built .
That being said , for the weekly open mic I host , I've switched to a Fender Acoustic 100 ,and use ot for most of the club's Solo and duet performances , it is much warmer sounding with the single 10 , It pairs wonderfully with my archtop and is a breeze to get a great tone out of .
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The 810 is a beautiful guitar. To answer your first question, yes some of the nuances are preserved. By comparison to a semihollow and especially to solidbodies, you get a significant chunk of the sound character coming thru the pickup. The attack - decay - sustain characteristics come thru, as well as the carved top’s sensitivity to every input. Originally Posted by jeremiahzellers
But as already noted by others, NO you will not really get the true acoustic tone from that pickup. To capture the moving air, you need a microphone.
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I saw Julian Lage play last weekend, and on his acoustic guitars he had a magnetic soundhole pickup as well as a clip on above the sound hole. I assume that he mixed the two together, and he got a wonderful acoustic sound.
For your purposes I would think it would be worth trying to mix the Armstrong with a good clip on. I've been meaning to try mixing both on my archtop, hope to get around to it soon!
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If you were to take two different archtops and install the same electronics and then A/B thru the same gear, I bet they would sound different, but, perhaps not dramatically different. I'd guess humbucker vs single coil might make more difference, but I'm guessing. Originally Posted by jeremiahzellers
It's also true that the player's technique can reveal the guitar within. That may be more obvious on classical guitar, but I think it's true of electric archtops to some extent.
Some players have an actual microphone on a gooseneck. But I haven't seen that very often.
I've had the experience of being unable to tell apart archtop vs solidbody on a recording. And, that was with two different players. They can sound very close.
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Tim Miller played a Canton guitar (caution: only buy "used" Canton's! lots of problems with the builder, if you google) that had a small mic inside; when he recorded his earlier albums (pre-Canton), he would plug into an amp, and then have a mic for the "acoustic" sound of the guitar, and then blend them in the mix.
Geetar:
From his first album:
Using the Canton:
[I know this "style" isn't what the OP is going for, but the tech would work.]
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Compare a Gibson Johnny Smith with say a Gibson L-5CES and you’ll hear some difference. Go further and compare say a laminate Gibson ES-175 or Tal Farlow with the the previous solid carved instruments and compare those differences.
Acoustically without any pickup and just a microphone is way different tone altogether!
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Thank for all the input. I decided to give the Mesa Rosette 2:Eight a chance.
my god.. this thing does sound great! Super glad I decided to go for it.
To my great surprise, even my solid body Telecaster Deluxe (with Fralin pickups) sounds lovely through it. I almost prefer it to my tube amps. Just some of the nicest soft bell like tones on the upper strings.
of anyone is considering this amp: go for it.
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