More on the powered speaker experiment

[rpjazzguitar]

For reasons I can't explain, I decided to upgrade from the Little Jazz (quiet settings) and a complicated rig involving a pedalboard, mixer (which seemed to warm up the sound a little, unless that was my imagination) and large powered speaker (loud settings).

My idea was to go from the pedalboard to a powered speaker. The pedalboard, in this fantasy, would provide amp and cabinet simulation and then the powered speaker would sound great. What could possibly go wrong?

I had an ME80, but the ME90 had just come out and got really good reviews for its preamps and IR slots. So, I traded in the ME80 for an ME90.

I also got a Bose S1 Pro + and an EV Everse 8 to try.

Here's a list of the main things that didn't work out.

1. With the ME80, the Bose S1 gave me too much bass. I couldn't control the low E string with the available 2 band EQ on the unit or the 3 band on the pedalboard. And, the sound could be a little too pristine -- felt like I needed to warm it up.

2. I then got the Everse 8 because it has 7 band EQ. That helped a little but it had a somewhat harsh sound that I couldn't dial out. It may be possible, perhaps with the parametric EQ I never tried, but I gave up.

3. At that point I upgraded to the ME90, thinking the improved preamps might help. I took it to a few gigs and had problems on every one. I'd carefully set up my 4 patches for the sounds I used and balanced the volumes. On the gigs, every time, it sounded different and I ended up trying to reprogram the patches on the fly. Volumes I'd carefully balanced got out of whack (some other users have complained about this). I did it repeatedly and had some kind of issue every time.

The ME90 also has a less sensitive tuner (actually, it's the arrows -- they stay lit up even when the app shows instability on the connected computer). IRs were a deeper rabbit hole I didn't enjoy. I didn't like any of the AIRD (the newer technology) preamps. 3 band EQ wasn't enough. And, controlling it all, including the things that you can't see (like the things you can only change with the app) just got more complicated than I want to deal with on a gig. Obviously, a lot of people don't have these issues and like the unit. Maybe they are less easily befuddled.

Here's what went right:

4. I then pulled my dusty ME70 off the shelf and rediscovered that it has 4 band EQ and could solve the bass frequency bloom problem. It has some kind of cab modeling which improved the sound a bit. I took it to a big band rehearsal with the S1, and it sounded pretty good. Maybe a little too pristine still, so I'm not sure I'm done. Another benefit: it's narrower and fits in an ordinary rolling briefcase. I can put the S1 on top and roll the whole thing easily.

EDIT: I added a Korg PX5D set for "Jazz" amp and Tweed 1x12. Set it up with the A/B box. Sounded pretty good but it was hard to balance the highs -- to get thick high notes without any of that trebly screech (is there a term for that -- what happens to high notes when you've got too much treble?). But it did mellow the overall sound a bit. I decided it wasn't worth sacrificing some simplicity for the difference in sound.

5. In my practice room, I hooked up an A/B box I made years ago with a DPDT switch. Back and forth between the LJ, S1 and a Roland JC55. The S1 won every time. The S1 is 14 lbs, small, as loud as I ever want to play, and capable of being a PA in a small (maybe not so small, even) room. I'm using it for vocals as well.

Conclusion:

As much as a trip down a gear rabbit hole ever concludes, the S1 seems like a keeper and I'm probably going to give up on the ME90 while keeping my eyes open for a product that would have the features I need.

a. Separate foot switches for the 4 sounds I want to use. All I need is reverb, harmonizer, mild overdrive and, if possible, delay.

b. Volume pedal that permits accurate control. Some are too small and/or don't have enough resistance for that.

c. At least 4 band EQ and the more bands the merrier.

d. Good sound into powered speaker

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Volume pedal that permits accurate control.

My Morley optical is the most accurate and reliable volume pedal I've ever seen. I bought it new decades ago and have used it with guitars, keyboards, and even a vocal harmonizer through which I played a trumpet or a sax to make a horn section. I don't think they've made this model in years, but there are a lot of them available used for next to nothing. Mine's been perfect from day 1, and everyone I know with one has had the same experience. It's built like a tank (all metal), truly silent, and true stereo with 2 completely separate channels. I wear a size 12 shoe and it's plenty big enough.

Morley's current volume pedal is a single channel optical unit with effects in it. It's still all steel, and they claim it's the same optical circuit as mine. As long as the effects are either silent (which is unlikely) or bypassable, it's what I'd buy today if I didn't need true stereo. FWIW, Morley volume pedals have a lifetime warranty.

[rpjazzguitar]

My Morley optical is the most accurate and reliable volume pedal I've ever seen. I bought it new decades ago and have used it with guitars, keyboards, and even a vocal harmonizer through which I played a trumpet or a sax to make a horn section. I don't think they've made this model in years, but there are a lot of them available used for next to nothing. Mine's been perfect from day 1, and everyone I know with one has had the same experience. It's built like a tank (all metal), truly silent, and true stereo with 2 completely separate channels. I wear a size 12 shoe and it's plenty big enough.

Morley's current volume pedal is a single channel optical unit with effects in it. It's still all steel, and they claim it's the same optical circuit as mine. As long as the effects are either silent (which is unlikely) or bypassable, it's what I'd buy today if I didn't need true stereo. FWIW, Morley volume pedals have a lifetime warranty.

I remember those, although I bought the Ernie Ball back in the day. I think it was cheaper. I still have it and use it occasionally. Ordinary pots with a bit of intermittent scratchiness, but well built with smooth travel.

One I didn't like was the Boss GT-1. Pedal seemed too small for accurate use. I did not have a chance to check if there was a way to increase the resistance. Didn't bother, because the scrolling just didn't work for me. To be fair to the unit: it was tiny, weighed nothing, sounded good and had all kinds of parameter adjustment available. The issues were all user interface.

[SierraTango]

RP, in all your many detailed posts on this subject and your quest for the perfect rig, I don't see what type of guitar you are plugging into this setup. Or did I miss that?

As I have stated before, I am very content with my 90 Benedetto Cremona (Bartolini floater) plugged into a LJ 12 lined out to my EV Evolve 30. No other effects or gizmos. Simple. Easy in and out of the gig. Control via Bluetooth on phone.

Is it perfection? Well, no, using my Evans JE 200 in place of the LJ is really better. But the LJ 12 is super close and weighs 18 lbs vs. 36 for the Evans.

I've done many gigs with this setup and always get compliments on our sound.

[rpjazzguitar]

RP, in all your many detailed posts on this subject and your quest for the perfect rig, I don't see what type of guitar you are plugging into this setup. Or did I miss that?

As I have stated before, I am very content with my 90 Benedetto Cremona (Bartolini floater) plugged into a LJ 12 lined out to my EV Evolve 30. No other effects or gizmos. Simple. Easy in and out of the gig. Control via Bluetooth on phone.

Is it perfection? Well, no, using my Evans JE 200 in place of the LJ is really better. But the LJ 12 is super close and weighs 18 lbs vs. 36 for the Evans.

I've done many gigs with this setup and always get compliments on our sound.

Good to know. I have used the LJ that way (that is, pedalboard into LJ into PA) when the venue has a PA. Works well. You get the sound, the controls and the option of using it as a monitor.

I usually play a stock Comins GCS-1. All of these experiments were done with it -- and for some I also played a Yamaha Pacifica 012 with the Lil 59 HB in the neck position. Comins sounds better.

I had to look up the EV Evolve 30. Line array. Yet another positive report about a line array. I've played through a JBL line array (pedalboard, LJ and JBL) and loved the sound. I sang through a Bose L1 a couple of times and loved that. Soounds very natural, for want of a better way to describe it.

[Spook410]

RP.. honestly.. not trying to sell you on Joyo stuff. Just citing an example where EQ is a hard requirement within the unit.

That being said.. their cabinet modeler allows you to choose a 5 band graphic EQ or parametric EQ. I like the mellow but detailed sound of their 6L6 power amp, Neumann U87, 4X10 Bassman cabinet model much of the time. However, the EQ is pretty much an absolute requirement because I need to dial the bass back around 150hz or fight some awful low end boom. The settings on my $40 preamp modeler emulate a Fender well but aren't precise so it's nice the cab modeler has that feature.

I'm thinking any issues you may have with powered speaker tone belong with the Boss ME90. I've been around an S1 and what's not to like? It just reproduces what you give it.

[rpjazzguitar]

RP.. honestly.. not trying to sell you Joyo stuff though I'm happy with mine. Just citing an example where EQ is a hard requirement within the unit.

That being said.. their cabinet modeler allows you to choose a 5 band graphic EQ or parametric EQ. I like the mellow but detailed sound of their 6L6 power amp, Neumann U87, 4X10 Bassman cabinet model much of the time. However, the EQ is pretty much an absolute requirement because I need to dial the bass back around 150hz or fight some awful low end boom. The settings on my $40 preamp modeler emulate a Fender well but aren't precise so it's nice the cab modeler has that feature.

I'm thinking any issues you may have with powered speaker tone belong with the Boss ME90. I've been around an S1 and what's not to like? It just reproduces what you give it.

Would you remind me exactly which model has the modeling and EQ?

My experience of needing to dial down low end boom is the same. The low band of the ME70's 4 band EQ does it. The 3 band on the ME90 could not.

[Spook410]

Would you remind me exactly which model has the modeling and EQ?

My experience of needing to dial down low end boom is the same. The low band of the ME70's 4 band EQ does it. The 3 band on the ME90 could not.

It's the Joyo Cabinet Modeler ($150) Amazon.com

You can choose power amp, mic, mic position, and EQ (para or 5 band as well as a low and high pass). Comes with 40 cabinet IR's and an IR installer to load your own. What it doesn't do is a preamp and I haven't really tried it without an amp model in front of it. Don't know how durable it's going to be over time but I sure like it so far.

[rpjazzguitar]

I did two more gigs and a rehearsal with the Bose S1 Pro + and the ME70. The ME70 is two versions back, but it's the only one with four band EQ. That allowed me to get control over the bass frequencies.

But, I still had some trouble with the treble and I struggled to dial in a tone I liked.

As it turned out, the problem was within the Bose S1.

The Bose has two band EQ. It also has some EQ presets which are named in the app but not documented. You just have to try them. Bose does not publish what they actually do. I used the Gibson 335 preset, which seemed to be the best of the lot.

I was already lowering the bass on the Bose and still having trouble with the treble. Unclear what lowering both accomplishes. When I couldn't get the treble under control with the ME70 I found myself rolling it off all the way at the guitar. When the twangy fizz finally went away the resulting sound was a dull thud.

So, I tried to roll treble off at the Bose. At that point I discovered that neither the adjustment on the unit, nor the one on the app, changed the sound at all.

Troubleshooting:

My ears? I had my son (a musician) and my wife verify it.

Software? I verified that I have the most up to date version.

Settings? I tried various settings. Tonematch on and off. Different presets. Flat preset. Various combinations on the treble and bass controls.

Unplugged the ME70 and went right into the Bose from the guitar. Same thing.

Tried all 3 Bose channels. None of the treble controls did anything to the sound.

I reset it by removing and replacing the battery after a minute wait.

I went on line but I couldn't find any indication that it's a common problem.

I hope I haven't forgotten anything else I tried.

But, at the end, I couldn't control it and I couldn't figure out why not.

It's possible I missed something obvious, but it wasn't obvious to me and I decided that I didn't want to have to deal with something I couldn't easily troubleshoot. I also don't like new gear breaking for no obvious reason, if that's what happened.

Fortunately, I bought it with a return privilege which hadn't elapsed.

Overall, the powered speaker rabbit hole taught me a few things about audio and, perhaps most important, made the importance of ample headroom clear. Louder situations were a very different experience, although, to be fair, it was too easy to play too loud. Not a problem with the DV Mark Little Jazz.

I'm now thinking about giving in and buying a Blu.

[alltunes]

Can you remind us why you set out on this endeavor? Is there a reason why a small quality tube amp won’t suffice?

[pingu]

what kinda signal were you testing
the Bose S1 with

you may well know this already
but anyway

its treble control probably works
on approx 8khz and up

an electric guitar doesn’t get up there

[rpjazzguitar]

what kinda signal were you testing
the Bose S1 with

you may well know this already
but anyway

its treble control probably works
on approx 8khz and up

an electric guitar doesn’t get up there

I tried it with a vocal mic and a high octave on a piano. I couldn't hear any difference. Do I need a dog who likes piccolo?

Assuming that I just couldn't hear it, then, in effect, the only relevant EQ is the bass control. Since I was continuing to have trouble taming the treble, it just isn't enough.

As far as what led me down this path:

I was intrigued by the reviews of the Bud/Blu, including a comment that they were both good for vocals. Since I do announcements and some vocals on gigs, I thought it would be a good idea to have an amp that would be good for both. But, the Bud struck me as very expensive for a small amp.

The usual stated vocal range, bass to soprano, is almost identical to the range of the guitar (and clarinet for that matter). So, if the Bud/Blue sounded good for vocals it had to be reasonably flat in that range, or so I thought. Common wisdom is that "flat" doesn't work for guitar, but the Bud/Blu have 5 band EQ, so maybe the idea is to run vocals flat and EQ the guitar?

Anyway, I began to wonder if I could get good results from a powered speaker at half the price. I had one on hand, a Mackie SRM 350, original model. It doesn't have the modern version's preamp, but with a mixer in the signal path, I got a great guitar sound. It's a lot to haul around though. So, I started thinking about smaller powered speakers. The S1 seemed like it might be a good choice, provided I could control EQ adequately, somehow.

I tried it with the ME80, a new ME90 and, eventually, an old ME70 (the ME70 is the only one with 4 band EQ). Also, a Korg PX5D. I was not able to get the kind of reproducible positive results I needed. I don't assert that it's impossible (I did dial it in at times), but one of my criteria is that I need to make any needed adjustments on a gig in a matter of seconds, in the dark, with predictable results. I didn't get there. I could have added a 10 band EQ to the signal chain -- I was thinking about it when I noticed that the S1's treble control didn't do anything audible. It would have been one more thing to haul and set up -- and I was trying to go simpler. So, at that point I gave up.

[alltunes]

This morning I plugged in my Telecaster directly into my Bose S1 Pro (the original model) and yes the Bose treble control had basically no effect no matter which pre-amp setting I had it on. So Pingu's comment "its treble control probably works on approx 8khz and up" sounds accurate to me.

I was looking at the Bud and every review I read was positive in regards to covering guitar and vox at the same time. So maybe it is worth the $$??

[rpjazzguitar]

This morning I plugged in my Telecaster directly into my Bose S1 Pro (the original model) and yes the Bose treble control had basically no effect no matter which pre-amp setting I had it on. So Pingu's comment "its treble control probably works on approx 8khz and up" sounds accurate to me.

I was looking at the Bud and every review I read was positive in regards to covering guitar and vox at the same time. So maybe it is worth the $$??

That's interesting.

If you use tonematch, one of the utility settings is 80hz to 5000hz bandpass. In that case, you wouldn't hear any change from the treble control, if I understand it. I tried it with and without tonematch and couldn't hear any difference. That was true with voice, an upper octave on piano and guitar.

A lot of the reviews mentioning guitar are written from the point of view of busking. So, usually, it's a flattop acoustic and voice. Apparently, it's very good for that.

So, for me, the treble control was useless, leaving me with a bass rolloff/boost and some undocumented presets.

None of which really has to matter. What did matter was that I couldn't tame the treble enough to get my sound.

As far as the Bud/Blu, if they're good for voice, that would seem to suggest a flat response in the range of guitar or vocal (almost identical ranges for the fundamentals). Which is why I started thinking about the S1, since it's about half the price. But, now I'm seriously thinking about the Blu.

[Spook410]

I know you're past all this.. but did you turn the tonematch off before trying to set the bass/treble manually? Wouldn't be surprised if the tonematch overrides other settings though the manual implies this isn't the case. Regardless, even if the treble isn't in a range useful for guitar, you should still hear a difference when you turn the knob.

Out of curiosity I pulled up the S1 manual to see what the range on the treble is. Didn't see any useful information regarding EQ.

The powered speaker approach still offers benefits unavailable with a small combo. Dispersion, acoustic instrument support, power handling, form factor (weight, carry, speaker stand), mic support, and other stuff. But if it doesn't work it doesn't. And we should not have to fight our gear to get the sound we want. Wish it had worked out better for you.

[alltunes]

But, now I'm seriously thinking about the Blu.

But if you want vox and guitar don't you want the Bud?

[rpjazzguitar]

But if you want vox and guitar don't you want the Bud?

I like the 2 channels, so yes, you're right. I'm balking at spending more on a little amp than, say, a Bose L1 or other line array costs. Illogical, sure. And that's what made me think about a powered speaker in the first place.

Also, some reviews suggest the Blu may be a little warmer. Others say they sound about the same.

[Spook410]

It's the Joyo Cabinet Modeler ($150) Amazon.com

You can choose power amp, mic, mic position, and EQ (para or 5 band as well as a low and high pass). Comes with 40 cabinet IR's and an IR installer to load your own. What it doesn't do is a preamp and I haven't really tried it without an amp model in front of it. Don't know how durable it's going to be over time but I sure like it so far.

3 months since I bought the Joyo Cabinet Modeler. The DI failed today. Just loud white noise. The 1/4" unbalanced out still works. Sucks to have it fail so quickly.

[rpjazzguitar]

Not that GAS is ever over, but here's where I ended up.

1. I couldn't adequately EQ the Bose S1 with its own controls and those on the ME90. Well, at least, not consistently. It worked great on a few gigs and gave me trouble on others. One of my regular gigs has a very tight bandstand. There's no way to get the amp behind me. I can get it front on the floor, or on a table off the side. The LJ has a rear port which made that a little better, but the S1 doesn't and was the wrong tool for that job. That's not a knock on the S1 but just a problem it can't fully solve.

In other situations it was too easy to play too loud (that's on me) and too easy to suddenly get too much treble and then try to control it from the guitar, the pedalboard and the S1. I could not hear any effect from the S1 treble control for guitar, mic or piano; neither could my wife or son, who don't have high frequency loss. I struggled at times to get my sound. Just not simple enough or not idiot proof. A shame, because there is a lot to like.

2. The extra EQ on the Everse 8 should have been more helpful, but wasn't. I just didn't care for the sound as much as the S1 and I couldn't tweak it to my sound, even though there are a lot of options for tone shaping. To be fair, I didn't try the built in parametric equalizer. I just gave up.

3. I traded in my ME80 for an ME90. That should have helped. But I didn't like any of the preamp sounds. There are a lot of things to tweak, including IRs, but I ended up going back to my old ME70. It's narrower (it fits comfortably into a rolling briefcase where the others do not), sounds about as good (for the FX I use, anyway) and has 4 band EQ, whereas the ME80 and ME90 have only 3 band. Switching to the tuner requires stepping on two switches simultaneously (the others have a dedicated switch), but the others take a second or two to turn on the tuner. The ME70 is instant. Also, they reduced the sensitivity of the tuner arrows in the ME90 - it will show the guitar as in perfect tune even when you can see it wobbling on the app. If somebody wants an integrated pedal board, the ME70 is worth considering.

One problem with the ME90 and powered speaker setup is that there are a lot of things to adjust. I end up thinking, while I'm playing, something like "my notes aren't thick enough". What's that? EQ on the guitar? The ME90's preamp, EQ, IR or line/amp switch? Or maybe I should adjust the 7 band on the Everse or the preset on the Bose. As has been said, it's features in the store, it's simplicity on the bandstand.

4. Last night I played the gig with the tight bandstand. This time, I brought an old JC55 (which can sound a little icy) and the LJ as a backup if the JC55 didn't work out. I put it on the floor in front of me, which worked well because it has an open back. I used my usual settings on the front panel and my usual "wet" patch. For the most part, that sounded great; I touched the guitar's tone control once or twice. I never even plugged in the LJ (which I used dozens of times on that gig).

5. So, for the time being I've got three rigs. The ME70 is part of all three. LJ for quiet things where load-in is a hassle. The JC55 for most things. And, the Mackie SRM350 behind the Yamaha mixer MGU10 for situations where I have to be loud. The Mackie is the original version which won't work well with -10dbu input, hence the need for the mixer.

6. I bought a folding cart a few months back. Think taking the toddlers to the beach. Everything fits in it and it isn't that much of a hassle.

So there you have it. The result of the rabbit hole dive is going back to gear that I had mostly abandoned.

[Cunamara]

I, too, have had extravaganzas of gear experimentation only to ultimately go back to what I already had, perhaps even simpler. Currently I am using a guitar, a cord and a 5E3 Deluxe- without even reverb.

I sure like the notion of the Bose S1, though, but I think it would have to have something in front of it like the Polytone in a pedal. Aaaaggghh! Rabbit hole filled with GAS!!!

Thanks for sharing your adventures with this, RP!

[rpjazzguitar]

I, too, have had extravaganzas of gear experimentation only to ultimately go back to what I already had, perhaps even simpler. Currently I am using a guitar, a cord and a 5E3 Deluxe- without even reverb.

I sure like the notion of the Bose S1, though, but I think it would have to have something in front of it like the Polytone in a pedal. Aaaaggghh! Rabbit hole filled with GAS!!!

Thanks for sharing your adventures with this, RP!

Glad somebody got something out of it!

The thing that bothers me about the Bose S1 is that the EQ is two band, one of which I can't hear. There are also the presets, but there is no documentation available (I called Bose to ask) about exactly what the presets do. You can certainly go through a few dozen of them in the practice room, but I can't see how you'd adjust things on a gig. I play a 335 type and I did find the 335 setting to be the best one, so there's that. Of course, is that Larry Carleton or Chuck Berry?

What I liked about the S1 was that it was loud and clean. On a loud bandstand the EQ issues didn't seem to bother me as much on quieter gigs, or so it seemed. It's small and light, but doesn't sound like a little box at all.

You're paying for and carrying a battery. If they made a version without the battery and two pounds lighter, I'd probably have bought that one. It's designed for busking, among other things, and those features work for that

[rpjazzguitar]

Attached are two tunes recorded at the tight-bandstand gig.

This is the Comins GCS-1, through the ME70 into a JC55, on the floor in front of me, partly under a big table. The recorder was on top of the big table, so it mostly heard reflected sound, I guess. What I like is that the notes sound thick and the chords don't sound harsh. It just felt comfortable to play with that sound. Although I have four sounds programmed in, and I usually use 3 of them, this time I stayed with this one all night. It's mostly harmonizer on zero and reverb. No added preamp or EQ.

It felt right all night. I never touched the amp or the pedal board. I made one or two tiny adjustments on the guitar's tone control. In this respect (no need for tweaking), it performed better than the the LJ (which can make chords sound harsh at this volume), or either of the powered speakers.

[Spook410]

Couldn't hear the mp3's very well..

I think what I'm taking away from this thread is that there are combo amps, full range flat response (FRFR) riges with the speaker purely as reproduction, and a hybrid approach like you're doing. In the hybrid you want to rely and the speaker/amp for some signal processing (EQ in this case). I think this would work with a good acoustic guitar amplifier.