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Today, I had a rehearsal for tomorrow's gig. I used the S1 for the first time in a band situation. Rehearsal room is about 15'x18' with sound treatment. KB,G,B,D and a misc. instr player (see below).
ME80 adding reverb only > S1 (set on Instr, with 80-5k bandpass from the tonematch library, various settings for treble and bass).
It was plenty loud. Chords were mostly clear. Leads could be too icy. Bass notes bloomed a little. Two band EQ didn't solve the problem. The tonematch library is nowhere near as helpful as it should be. It offers presets, which may be just EQ profiles. The are named based on products, so, for example, there are settings called Stratocaster, Telecaster and Les Paul, among many others. But, it isn't at all clear what they do. If I want less bass, which setting should I choose? I called Bose to ask about it yesterday and they had nothing to offer. I tried a bunch of them. Some were worse than others, but none gave me the sound I wanted.
I tried using the LJ as a preamp. I think it helped a bit, but I have more work to do to explore that. The LJ sounded boxier, for want of a better descriptor. The S1 Pro+ reportedly is a line axis device with three small speakers in a vertical row (above a woofer). But, unlike the original, they aren't all pointed in the same direction. So, less boxy may make sense.
The misc. instrument player plugged a chromatic harmonica and an electronic wind instrument (not th, but not the electronic horn, wich has its own. Both sounded terrific.
So, I'll see how it handles the gig without the LJ. But I'll bring it just in case.
I'm thinking the S1 needs something to add warmth and/or EQ. I'm now wondering if the Bud/Blu faced and solved this problem with the 5 band EQ. In their ads they make a point about the tuning of the EQ for guitar.
The ME90 reportedly has a bunch of features which may be advances over the ME80 and may help. By some reports, better amp models. Also, it has IRs and the ability to load more IRs. Other possibilities are a preamp with a real tube, a GE7 or a Joyo American.
More work to do.
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12-07-2023 10:24 PM
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Or maybe just grab an outboard EQ stompbox. MXR 10-band are around $150, six-band about $120. It would solve the immediate problem without having to go down the rabbit hole of researching, learning to use, and tweaking the presets of a new multifx unit. If I were going to go down that rabbit hole, though, I'd come out with a unit that would allow different EQ settings per patch. (ME80 probably already does this, just with insufficient capabilities to shape the tone.)
$0.02
SJ
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That might do it. Certainly would get the EQ under control. Warmth, though, I would think it something more -- something about which harmonics are emphasized, if I understand it. The ME90 has 3 band EQ, like the ME80. Some people suggest the amp models are improved in the ME90, but I've never found the ones in the ME80 useful.
Originally Posted by starjasmine
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Can you put in a little overdrive into your patches on the Boss? Harmonic distortion is part of what gives tube amps their warmth.
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So the guitar and ME80 sound fine through your previous (too physically heavy) amp? Unless you really love the S1 for other reasons, maybe take advantage of that easy Amazon return and move on ;-) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
IDK, that's just me... long ago I stopped buying and using guitars and amps that I did not LOVE "as is", having spent way too much time and money trying to make a silk purse out of sow's ear. "Sow's ear" may be a bit harsh to say about the S1, but you get the idea. There are about a zillion amps out there...
But because I can't leave well enough alone :-) a tube preamp might do the trick of shaping the tone and adding a little natural compression.
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Ooooh - I've got it! A Twin and a teenage roadie who will grunt it around in exchange for guitar lessons :-)
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Would the brute eq be helpful? It seems to add warmth at every frequency.
Personally I’d like to try a pillar line array like the L1 or another brand.
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I was getting good sound from this rig: guitar > ME80 > Little Jazz > Yamaha Mixer MG10u > Mackie SRM350. Originally Posted by starjasmine
One view of this is "I carry whatever it takes to get good sound". Hard to argue with that.
But, I took the LJ out of that signal chain and it still sounded good, and the mixer was a minor pain to set up, but the Mackie (large and heavy) wouldn't work well without it ... so I figured out that the S1 would be small enough and loud enough, coming right out of the ME80.
And then the voices in my head started haranguing me to buy one ... and the rest is probably familiar to musicians.
I played two outdoor gigs recently where the band had a JBL Line Array (same sort of thing as the Bose L1). I went ME80> LJ (for the EQ) and then right into the JBL. I absolutely loved the sound. I've sung through an L1 a couple times and thought it was beyond terrific. No directionality to the sound -- it doesn't seem like it's coming out of a box to your left or whatever -- it sounds like it's naturally around you and sounds great in the audience.
I play one place that has a big, complicated PA with FOH speakers hung over the stage and big side-fills. Overkill for a jazz quintet. I go ME80>LJ>PA (bass at 9 o'clock) and it sounds great. So, that was another data point that ME80>LJ>Bose S1 should sound good, if it's FRFR is as good as it's cracked up to be.
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Thanks so much for confirming my suspicions!
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I have a Bose S1. I only use it for one purpose: to play outdoors or any place without electricity (mountains, Oceanside, etc) for up to five hours, using the charged battery. I wouldn’t think of using anything else with it, it kind of defeats the purpose for which it was designed. You can comfortably lug both the Bose S1 and the guitar, over you shoulder. In the era of tiny battery amps, I’ve used my Bose outdoors and you could hear it down the street. It has enough volume, well more than enough volume, with enough clarity.
At that level of volume, an electric guitar is gonna sound like an electric guitar, as they say. For me, no need to go down rabbit holes.
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On Friday, I played my regular restaurant gig. This is a very tight bandstand. No room for the Bose S1, small though it is, behind me. I usually put the Little Jazz on the floor in front of me. That's not ideal, because I mostly hear it from the rear port, which sounds kind of like a cocked wah wah.
With no rear port on the S1 I didn't put it there. Instead it was on a table, in front of me and to the right. Not ideal either, since I wasn't getting much direct sound. I never quite got comfortable. Felt echo-y. I had it going through the ME80 and a mixer (which I needed for vocal mic and chromatic harmonica), and I rolled off some bass with the 3 band EQ on the mixer.
Today, Reg was kind enough to invite me to sit in on his gig. This is outdoors and a good deal louder than my quiet restaurant gig. I was able to put the S1 behind me (by a foot or two) to my right and I had it leaning back (it's designed to do that, if you want). This time, I thought it sounded fine. And, solos sounded full-throated, where the LJ, by comparison, sounded pinched, for want of a better term. It was the ME70 (not a typo, the older one) right into the S1. It's possible that the ME80 patch was wetter than the ME70 version and that might have been part of the difference.
I didn't use EQ in either ME unit, either night. On the outdoor gig I had the bass on the S1 at about 9 o'clock, which is mostly rolled off.
Using the S1 on the outdoor gig reminded me of the first time I went ME80>LJ>>mixer>Mackie SRM350. The effortless volume and expansive sound were terrific to play with. The S1 gave that, but with a much smaller and lighter weight unit.
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So is the Bose S1 a keeper ?
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Looks like it. I'll try it with big band tomorrow and then decide. Originally Posted by pingu
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Tried it with the big band tonight. This is a very large room, a 16 piece band (short a bone tonight) and mostly hard surfaces.
Rig was guitar> ME70 > Bose S1 Pro +. I had the S1 in vertical position, but tilted back.
It sounded great.
Last week I used the ME70, a mixer and the SRM350. I thought I got a better sound today. Seems hard to believe and, tbh, I didn't A/B it - I'm going by a very imperfect memory.
It sounded bigger and effortless. I barely know what I mean by that, but I don't know how to better describe it. It's easier to describe the opposite. The opposite would be that something sounded like it was clearly coming out of a small box on the floor and also distorting the louder passages (headroom issue?) by making the chords sound just a bit harsh.
Instead, I felt more surrounded by sound and with the louder passages just sounding powerful. I could easily have buried the piano.
It is probably relevant that the S1 is a line array unit with the little speakers pointed in different directions.
Tomorrow I'll try it in a new situation. Guitar and bass backing a pop singer.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-12-2023 at 04:36 AM.
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Tonight, guitar, bass and vocals. ME70 into S1. Worked fine.
But, I did put my finger on a small thing that was bothering me. Most guitar amps have the controls on the front or the top. But that's not the case with the S1. If you're putting a speaker on a pole, you don't want the controls on top.
So it's awkward to make adjustments on the unit when it's on the floor. You can use the phone app for all the controls on the face of the unit. But, none of these options is as easy as having the controls on the face or top of the amp if the amp is on the floor.
I haven't tried it on a pole yet.
Overall, I'm happy with it and expect to keep it.
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so is it your thought that the S1 is providing a neutral amplification of the signal that goes into it? Or does it seem to add some coloration of its own to the sound? And it sounds like the experience of playing through it, of how you interact with the sound from it, is different than a traditional guitar amp with one or two speakers pointing forward. That's very interesting to me.
I am suddenly reminded that someone posted here that Tal Farlow used to use a Bose speaker cb, maybe an 801 or something like that. I've never seen any video of him playing through that, and am now wondering how that sounded, too. The Bose speaker design is pretty significantly different from normal guitar cabs. It is going to disperse very differently.
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I guess it should be neutral, but how would I know? Originally Posted by Cunamara
I've played with it in several situations now: big band, somewhat loud sextet outdoors, quiet quartet gig, guitar/bass/vocals, quiet quartet rehearsal.
The situation in which I thought it was great was the sextet. It felt like it had enough oomph for the setting and I felt like I could get in front of the band with it (I'm struggling to put this into words). I felt like it projected power. I did not feel it was boxy or obviously located on the ground behind me (which it was).
In all the other situations it was certainly adequate, but I wouldn't be surprised if I would prefer the sound of a good tube amp, if someone carried one in. At less than 15 lbs for the Bose, it's not a fair comparison. I do think it sounded better, on chords, than the Little Jazz. I'm not sure it was really better than the system with the ME80>LJ>Mixer>SRM350, which also excelled in louder situations.
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Have you tried playing direct into the Bose, no ME70/80? I'm curious vs direct into guitar amp.
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The only Bose speaker he could have used was a 901. But they’re just simple cabs with 9 identical “full range” 1 Ohm 4.5” drivers (8 in back, 1 in front). There was nothing significantly different from other closed cabs with multiple drivers (and a small port in later series). IIRC, the first ones were acoustic suspension cabs (ie sealed). Originally Posted by Cunamara
What was different was the use of very heavy EQ (the black box that went between the amplifier’s output and the speaker terminals) to turn a huge midrange hump into some semblance of a linear frequency response, plus the required placement with the 8 driver back close to and pointed toward a reflecting wall.
They were used for sound reinforcement and as guitar cabs by turning them around so the rear baffle with 8 drivers faced forward. They were often used without the EQ box as guitar speakers. And they took gobs of power without damage.
I always thought they sounded terrible. But the reflected sound was dramatically wide when placed correctly.
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I've often wondered why most of these amps of the same form factor have no mid control. My wife has a Mackie SRM Flex on loan for the week, same thing. I think I'll bring it in the house after her gig tonight and play around with it tomorrow on guitar. FYI, the bottom two tower sections are dummies, just to elevate the top tweeter section if you want.
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I only saw Tal Farlow play live once, and he used the famous stool with built in amp, speaker, and home-brew octave divider. Supposedly the amp was a Walter Woods; I don't know what the speaker was. There's a thread here that says he used a Walter Woods amp with a Bose 901, but that seems kind of unlikely - no pictures of him using one, plus it's a big heavy thing designed to work with special Bose electronics. Maybe used drivers from one? Originally Posted by Cunamara
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One of the reasons I was impressed with my EV Evolve 30 was 3 band (low, mid, high) EQ on each channel and 7 band eq for the overall mixer. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
I've often wondered why most of these amps of the same form factor have no mid control. My wife has a Mackie SRM Flex on loan for the week, same thing. I think I'll bring it in the house after her gig tonight and play around with it tomorrow on guitar. FYI, the bottom two tower sections are dummies, just to elevate the top tweeter section if you want.
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All controllable on my phone.
My signal path is Benedetto into Little Jazz 12, line out to EV.
I like it!
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How soon we forget Originally Posted by John A.
The 901s weigh 35 pounds each and are about 24x12x12”. A Twin is 65 pounds and about 26x20x12”. Stuff like this was not considered big & heavy before class D and neo came to town.
The reason Bose used an active equalizer is that the frequency response of those little drivers was very weak above a few kHz and below 100 Hz. He believed that the sonic compromises of heavy EQ were outweighed by the benefits of not using a crossover. I and many others disagree with him. I think the bass is sorely lacking in fundamentals below about 60 Hz and the treble is smeared and sounds artificial.
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Yes. I thought it sounded pretty good. That was at home, not on a gig. So, this refers to relatively quiet playing. Originally Posted by tpandela
One of my four patches on the ME80 is just a little reverb (and the S1 has its own reverb), so it's pretty close to straight into the S1 in sound. I play with my foot on the volume pedal at all times, so I am using the ME80 for that. But, I've tested it -- when it's not adding any effects it sounds almost the same as when it's bypassed entirely. Not exactly the same, but close enough.
Lately, though, that unprocessed sound has been striking me as too dry (it did with the LJ before I got the S1) and I haven't been using it that way very much. The S1 didn't sound so great with dry input that I've gone back to it.
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A few years ago, Rudy's in NYC had Tal's guitars for sale. I asked about the stool, which I'd read about. The staff person went behind the counter and moved a pile of detritus and thereby uncovered the stool. It was homemade to the extent that his volume pedal was crafted out of pieces of copper, where one piece rode in a track created by another piece. There was a lot of electronics in there, all unidentified. Lots of jacks, some connected, some not, suggesting he'd modified it over the years. The staff person said it was going to be a throw-in with one of the guitars. Originally Posted by John A.
Separately, I read that he had an octave divider set for an octave down. He'd use it to play bass lines behind the bass solos, which always struck me as an excellent idea.
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