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There are several pedals and devices out there that make a sonic image bigger. I've beeen wondering if running a stereo image and widening it would enhance the live sound of solo jazz and chord melody enough to justify the price and dragging the extra gear around. I have two Toob Metros and a few small stereo amplifiers, so adding a widening pedal should make a joyous noise with a good archtop. Wideners aren't cheap, e.g. the SPL BIG 500 pedal is $500.
So I did a little experiment with Audacity and a plug-in called Wider (which can also be used live with a VST host - see this info). I recorded a simple solo chord melody take of When I Fall In Love in mono with my Eastman 16" Jazz Elite 7 through my Blu 6. This is what I sound like now on a solo gig. Then I widened it to a big stereo image with the plug-in. The two tracks below are the original mono recording and the widened stereo recording. I'm curious as to whether others like the stereo sound and if you think the stereo image is worth the cost and effort for gigging.
Mono - mic'ing a Blu 6
Widened stereo:
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11-25-2023 07:10 PM
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In the unlikely event this is helpful:
I used to play in stereo and loved it. Then the other shoe dropped.
I used a Boss ME50 to create the stereo image. The setting was called Stereo Chorus.
One side wet, one dry, with the chorusing occurring in the air of the room.
Sounded great where I sat between the two amplifiers.
Eventually, I came to realize that the chorusing caused the guitar to sound out of tune -- badly -- in parts of the room.
It was dropped from the ME70 and ME80. It is back in the new ME90, but I haven't tried it yet.
If your unit creates the stereo image some other way, presumably this isn't a problem.
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A pure "widener" isn't a chorus or similar effect, and it doesn't seem to cause a pitch problem the way I'm doing it. From yur post, it sounds like you liked the stereo effect you got. I'm trying to decide if the widened sound of one guitar is a gimmick that I'll tire of or a full, rich sound. I loved the big sound Martin Taylor got from his stereo Yamaha archtop, but I only heard it recorded. I really don't know if I like it for live performance.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I tried a Zoom MS-60b for stereo chorus, and it started to annoy me from the second time I used it. That's why I'm looking for input comparing the straight sound of my guitar with a widened stereo image of it. I fear the widened sound may be more drama than enhancement. And I'm not about to spring for a widener pedal without a bit more confidence that it's worth the cost to me.
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First of all: nice playing!
Second of all: I preferred the original sound. It just seems more ‘pure’, less processed. But neither is bad.
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You could take a look at the patent by mastering engineer Bob Katz for his K-Stereo effect and try to recreate it with a multi-FX unit.
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Both Line 6 and Headrush multi-fx (and I bet others) have a stereo enhacer option - the Stomp and the MX-5 are small enough to take to a gig.
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Nice playing, kudos!
I prefer the original sound, which I find more focused and realistic. Maybe a lighter adjustment would be fine, where the spatiality is less evident, but I'm still not sure I would like it.
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In the past, I've used a TC Electronics D-Two for stereo, which I think had 8 multi taps, but it wasn't fully pannable.
I believe you can use two or more Yamaha MagicStomps for stereo, as Allan Holdsworth did, these are fully pannable and have 8 multi taps. You could turn the delay off and use the panning only for each tap.
Obviously, nowadays, software based effects can achieve this with ease.
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Some suggestions for lush stereo:
Eventide Micropitch for stereo detune and other stereo / delay effects
Boss dimension C
Strymon DIG (lots of similar stereo dual delays available)
Meris Mercury 7, Nuenaber wet, or similar stereo reverbs
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What a lot of people get wrong is this: Two monos, don't make Stereo.
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Waking up this morning and listening to these again, I got the same feeling I had the second time I used the stereo chorus pedal on a gig - it just doesn’t sound right to me. I agree with Rob and Stephano - the unprocessed guitar is more pure, less processed, more focused and realistic. This has happened with almost every effect I ever bought - the novelty wears off fast and I realize that I prefer the unadulterated sound of a guitar for most playing (especially solo jazz). At least we can now try new sounds at no cost using VST plugins and directly compare them with the unprocessed guitar sound.
Played back through my good audio system, my widened track does have the sonic impact of Martin Taylor’s early stereo image on vinyl. Maybe it will sound less gimmicky behind a vocalist, so I’m going to try that using a VST host on my laptop with a plugin before completely giving up on the idea.
Thanks for the input. You helped save me $500, although you prevented another member from getting a bargain when I sold the pedal (the one I’m not buying) at a loss after using it once or twice ?
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I love the sound of the stereo recording – it sounds very rich.
The problem with a stereo setup is that only the people directly in between the speakers hear the actual stereo... the effect is pretty much lost on everyone else.
For several years I used one of these SpaceStations, invented by the late Aspen Pittman. I had discussed this crazy thing with him before I bought one, but I found it an amazing tool.
For several years I played keys in a cover band, and when I needed an organ patch with leslie, this speaker would wow everyone with it's realistic stereo-like projection, everywhere in the room (and even in another connected room) and outside, as well. I also tried it with my guitar trio playing outdoors, with a mixer producing a stereo effect (one guitar and vocal straight, one guitar leftish, one rightish) and it filled a yard very satisfactorily, with that not-quite-stereo-but-sort-of sound.
It isn't really stereo, but rather what Aspen called a 3D sound. It is based on the mid-side recording system, only going the other way: one speaker shoots out straight, the other is shunted out to each side. If you're interested, you can read about it on the website.
I no longer play keys in a cover band, so I gave it to a friend who has an acoustic guitar with stereo pickup installed; he loves it.
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I don't think it's worth it.
I like both sounds equally even though they are different in my headphones. They are both good. And nice playing an nice arrangement.
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I remember it well. I bought his first tube amp book when it came out and used his guidance for many projects. Originally Posted by Ukena
Another option for a bigger sonic image is a mid-side plugin, of which there are several. I tried it on this recording, but it didn’t give the added fullness I got with the widener effect (which probably uses mid-side processing plus some delay, from the sound of it). I think m-s processing makes the sound field wider, but it doesn’t “bulk it up” like the wideners do. It’s great as a tool for post-processing, but I don’t think it’s as effective on its own for live performance. OTOH, doing it with multiple speakers in real time maintains more of the sound of the guitar.
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I prefer the mono. The widener almost sounds like one side is out of phase.
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My immediate impression of the stereo recording was,wow! This on the other hand wore off after listening to less than half the tune, which you played very nicely I wish to add, and I ended up retracting my wow.
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That’s exactly how I got the bug to try it. There was initial excitement, followed later by the rational realization that it just didn’t sound like I want my (or any) guitar to sound for very long. Originally Posted by 0zoro
Thanks for the kind words!
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I’m reminded of what someone told me about applying reverb: If you can hear it, it’s too much. Just get to the point where you can hear it, then cut it back a little. The audience will feel it rather than hear it.
Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 11-27-2023 at 03:54 AM.
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I read that same advice from a Steely Dan producer... Gary Katz. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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That must have been when Steely Dan hired me to record their next album, but they weren’t paying me properly, so I left. There’s only so many Hershey bars a man can eat!
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Most importantly: Nice playing! Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
As for the sound with Wider, I enjoyed both tracks, but I liked the Wider track quite a bit - it sounded similar to a pro studio recording. I'm not convinced that it would be audibly different in an actual venue with the usual attendant noise.
Worth $500 for the pedal? Will it generate $500 more in gigs within two years? Will it increase your pleasure in playing? Either could make it worth your money, but that's up to you.
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