The joy of flatwound strings on a solid body bridge

[Lionelsax]

Hi !

Does your bridge look like this ?

[Litterick]

No, I do not have a Nighthawk (or a Blueshawk).

[Lionelsax]

No, I do not have a Nighthawk (or a Blueshawk).

I mean the saddles.
Not the guitar model.

[Tal_175]

I mean the saddles.
Not the guitar model.

Are you talking about the intonation? The saddle adjustment for the D string seems a bit off. If the intonation is good, then something is wrong with the string.

[Lionelsax]

Are you talking about the intonation? The saddle adjustment for the D string seems a bit off. If the intonation is good, then something is wrong with the string.

The intonation is better than good, I would say perfect.

[Lionelsax]

That's very interesting !
This is with roundwounds.

[Tal_175]

That's very interesting !
This is with roundwounds.

That's a seven string guitar. But yes, that's how you'd normally expect the saddle adjustments of well intonated strings (with a wound G) to look like. But sometimes, individual strings can be outliers (as your D string seems to be). Assuming that the guitar has reasonably level frets.

[pauln]

The typical pattern is for the saddle positions to move closer toward the neck for each subsequent thinner string until the change from wound to plain, then for the initial plain string (typically G or B) the saddle position retreats away from the neck and the pattern of subsequent positions closer to the neck continues... in effect, the saddle positions form two slanted lines of wound and plain. That is what one would expect to see after intonation.

Here's what mine looks like...

[Lionelsax]

These are the gauges :

6 string guitar (flats)

011 - 015 - 020w - 030w - 035w - 048w

7 string guitar (rounds)

013 - 016 - w024 - w032 - w042 - w052 - w080

[AS193]

Very much.

[Lionelsax]

This is something that comes from the stringjoy calculator.
It's a bit false because they don't put the flatwound strings option.
Flatwounds have got more tension (the core is generally bigger).


I think, on the flatwound strings it's clearly different, the tension might be bigger than what it's said compared to roundwounds.
That's what I believe.
Have you ever seen a difference at the bridge when it's strung with flats vs rounds ?
I've got an archtop with 12-52 flatwound strings, the wooden bridge follows the same drawing than the 7 string bridge.
Maybe a 12-52 string set is more balanced than an 11-48 one.
I don't know.

[pauln]

Intonation is about registering the string lengths to the finger board's scale length so that the fret positions and resulting pitches are correct. But getting that right is subject to a problem with the "trueness" of the relationship between tension, length, and pitch.
The sounding length of the string's pitch is dependent on how the string's length is "felt" by the string itself - how it determines its length by feeling the termination at each end. That determination is fooled by stiffness near the terminations (and stiffness is a function of the string's gauge and winding). Stiffness in the terminations makes the string think it is shorter and will set up a sharper pitch than the true length would suggest. The thicker the string, the more length needs to be added to make it sound the pitch commensurate with its length. With a straight nut, the corrective variance in length shows at the saddles after intonation. And some guitars and string sets sound great with an angled single piece straight bridge.

[Lionelsax]

Intonation is about registering the string lengths to the finger board's scale length so that the fret positions and resulting pitches are correct. But getting that right is subject to a problem with the "trueness" of the relationship between tension, length, and pitch.
The sounding length of the string's pitch is dependent on how the string's length is "felt" by the string itself - how it determines its length by feeling the termination at each end. That determination is fooled by stiffness near the terminations (and stiffness is a function of the string's gauge and winding). Stiffness in the terminations makes the string think it is shorter and will set up a sharper pitch than the true length would suggest. The thicker the string, the more length needs to be added to make it sound the pitch commensurate with its length. With a straight nut, the corrective variance in length shows at the saddles after intonation. And some guitars and string sets sound great with an angled single piece straight bridge.

Yeah, like birds flying in the sky and fish swimming in the water.

[Christian Miller]

[Lionelsax]

[kris]

I use Korg OT-120 tuner for string intonation-much better than tuner clips.

[sgosnell]

The core diameter, and thus the tension, is not necessarily larger in flatwound strings than roundwound. Some flats are actually smaller. TI strings, for instance, have relatively thinner cores than most roundwound strings, IME. I don't know about Stringjoy, because I've never used them. But whatever the string, you can adjust the intonation to whatever gives good results. On a wooden saddle, you have no adjustment possibility other than setting the bridge to the best compromise. Different strings require different intonation adjustments, regardless of winding type. On a non-adjustable bridge, some will sound better than others.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Intonation is about registering the string lengths to the finger board's scale length so that the fret positions and resulting pitches are correct. But getting that right is subject to a problem with the "trueness" of the relationship between tension, length, and pitch. The sounding length of the string's pitch is dependent on how the string's length is "felt" by the string itself - how it determines its length by feeling the termination at each end. That determination is fooled by stiffness near the terminations (and stiffness is a function of the string's gauge and winding). Stiffness in the terminations makes the string think it is shorter and will set up a sharper pitch than the true length would suggest. The thicker the string, the more length needs to be added to make it sound the pitch commensurate with its length.

I don't know where you got your information, but it seems wrong to me. The "sounding length" of a string is the length between the bridge saddle and the nut. I don't think the parts between nut and tuner and between bridge and tailpiece will affect intonation, although they can generate spurious harmonics and other noises that affect how one or more notes will sound. The nut and the bridge can have a huge effect on intonation, e.g. if the slots aren't sized and shaped properly, with a single point of contact located at the face of the nut or bridge toward the fingerboard.

"Stiffness in the terminations" is the norm in all ball end strings - they're stiffer where the wires wrap back along the string after passing around the ball because there's a lot more metal and the process of wrapping and bending it "work hardens" it a bit:



This has no effect at all on intonation. And I may have dumb strings, but they don't seem to think at all. If you have any references for your thoughts, please post them so we can all learn from you.

[Lionelsax]

The core diameter, and thus the tension, is not necessarily larger in flatwound strings than roundwound. Some flats are actually smaller.

12-52


There is not a big difference.

13-56

[Lionelsax]

This is something that can be interesting.
https://www.daddario.com/globalasset...hart_13934.pdf

[Lionelsax]

Hi !

Does your bridge look like this ?

I was absolutely right !
My string hasn't got any kind of problems except that the set is incredibly unbalanced on a 25,5 inch scale and maybe it couldn't fit on a wooden archtop bridge.


This is the calculator.
String Tension Calculator

[Lionelsax]

I didn't use the stringjoy calculator properly.

[pauln]

I don't know where you got your information, but it seems wrong to me. The "sounding length" of a string is the length between the bridge saddle and the nut. I don't think the parts between nut and tuner and between bridge and tailpiece will affect intonation, although they can generate spurious harmonics and other noises that affect how one or more notes will sound. The nut and the bridge can have a huge effect on intonation, e.g. if the slots aren't sized and shaped properly, with a single point of contact located at the face of the nut or bridge toward the fingerboard.

"Stiffness in the terminations" is the norm in all ball end strings - they're stiffer where the wires wrap back along the string after passing around the ball because there's a lot more metal and the process of wrapping and bending it "work hardens" it a bit:



This has no effect at all on intonation. And I may have dumb strings, but they don't seem to think at all. If you have any references for your thoughts, please post them so we can all learn from you.

The referenced stiffness near the terminations are just inside the sounding string length terminations between the nut/fret and saddle, not outside them...

When the string is initially locally displaced when picked. The first few milliseconds after it is released from the pick that displacement within the sounding length is chaotic until it has traveled to reflect off the terminations at each end (nut /fret and saddle). Only then does the string move with regard to its sounding length as it sets up the nodes and vibration displacements between those nodes. The stiffness in the string near the terminations of the sounding string length causes ta non-linearity in the length - tension - pitch relationship, the thicker the string, the sharper the error.

If you want official references, read about the history of piano construction with regard to string perimeters, tonal quality, and tuning. Everything known about strings was examined and learned way back then in the attempt to make pianos as loud as possible while minimizing the anomalies that arise from attempting to do so.

[pauln]

Yeah, like birds flying in the sky and fish swimming in the water.

Yeah, like this...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

When calculating string tension, does round-wound versus flat-wound make a difference?