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Hey guys what do you think this is worth ? Repaired broken headstock, peeling lacquer on neck binding, Cedar Creek binding stains, and dings on the back. It’s a Super 400 Thinline.
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07-27-2023 10:36 PM
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Original break
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It's not a playable collectible now, but more like a good guitar for someone that can't afford an unbroken example or doesn't care as long as the price is right.
My gigging '69 L5 had a fresh headstock crack when I bought it over 30 yrs ago (not a complete/shatter break) but the guitar paid for itself the 1st year I owned it and many more times over since. I'd never sell it and 20 yrs after purchasing it, through some wacky circumstances, I found out it was originally made by Gibson for a well known jazz player I admire which just cemented me keeping it even more.
All this said I make it a point to avoid guitars w headstock breaks no matter how well repaired unless it was going to be a working instrument (even noting the superb job MC did on your sunburst Super 400 and I see he did as good a repair on this one as one could expect for a natural finish guitar) And w all respect to MC I put no extra stock in who did the repair as long as it's well done, it's not really much of a selling point down the road imo.
They're such are hard sell down the road it's just too much headache and too much of a financial hit unless it's a very very special guitar. None of the other issues you list bother me in the least--dings, scratches, chipping, I don't care about any of that and wouldn't care if it looked like it was dragged over gravel. But headstock breaks give me a headache (bad jack cracks a close second)
Not a ton of thinline Supers out there and I know it doesn't answer your question, but I'd steer clear, though there's always someone that doesn't care as long as it's within their budget or has no plans to ever sell it later.
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Avoid. With such a delicate and crucial load bearing join already compromised and wood fibres broken, you CAN'T know what's under there.
Don't get me wrong, it might be fine. You're going to get all sorts of stories about how their guitar was fine after a similar break, but this is potentially your guitar and not knowing if there's a graft, inlaid splint, how much the join was cleaned, how it was clamped, the grain break, whether some stray splinters prevent a tight glue join, or even whether the repair was done by an experienced luthier with seasoned experience in these breaks... you don't know- and it's gonna have a lot less integrity if it breaks again.
You always hear this thing "The glue join is actually stronger than the wood" but what you don't know is the condition of the wood surrounding that glue join. This is not a clean break.
Anybody who is serious about buying a guitar with a repair like this will be asking these very questions. That is always going to taint subsequent negotiations for future sales. Different people have different opinions, but the break speaks for itself.
My two cents.
Just curious. You know Mark, will he guarantee to rebuild it if it fails?Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 07-28-2023 at 07:25 AM.
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ps in blowing up the pic it looks as nasty as the sunburst Super did (a very serious break) but has the advantage of not having had a previous poor homemade repair like that one did. These aren't the typical relatively clean U or L shaped somewhat minor "tuner" cracks one normally sees (and that my L-5 had) these are shattered necks at the worst possible spot w the least amount of solid wood, taking the adjacent truss rod cavity into consideration.
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One thing you MIGHT do if you were totally in love with this is take it to a really good luthier, have them cut the peghead off, rebuild the neck and headstock with a clean graft so all glue surfaces are fresh, clean, joined properly and then have that refinished so it's like a new guitar.
Are you totally in love with this guitar?
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jbn, glad you put 'might' in caps as that's pretty drastic imo, you could always do that if the initial repair failed, and judging from some posts and looking at the pics already repaired by Mark Campellone
Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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This is Mark's work? Well that's encouraging. If this were a guitar I was considering, I'd still be wary, but in all honesty, I'd write to Mark myself, client to luthier, and ask his honest opinion knowing that he knows the 'patient'. Then I'd ask him if he'd be willing to do a real headstock graft if it ever failed. IF I were in love with this 18" monster. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I trust Mark's work. I also know that this type of repair seriously changes the integrity of a guitar.
Speaking of which, I don't know what the price on this conundrum is, but you'd literally be buying damaged goods. The question while one is in communication with Mark Campellone might be "Would I be better off having you build me one from scratch? Why or why not?"
Or maybe the unasked question is "How much do you really need this?"
(Or "Why?" and then for some, it's Why not? I'll take the Gibson, the new Campellone and I'm good for now.)
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vinnyv1k, you're selling this or considering buying this?
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A considered buy but I think the price is a little high for a headstock break. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Mark gives a lifetime guarantee but still…..
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If I owned this otherwise beautiful instrument, I'd be checking the guitar every day to see if the repair was ok--well at least for awhile.
But, if you like the way it plays and the way it sounds, then it could be the guitar for you--especially since Mark Campellone (a 100% straight shooter) was involved with the repair.
In-so-far as resale, that's never been an issue with me--since guitars are generally not a reliable investment.
Happy Landings
Tony D.
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The seller wants $8K. Way too much IMO.
If the price is right I may pull the trigger.
Thinline S400’s are great. I still don’t know what a good price is ?
I am thinking maybe 5-6 range. Am I wrong ?
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A quick look on the "bay" showed L5s fetching between 6000-10,000.
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I have a 2002 Super 400T (Wes) with presentation grade appointments I am helping a friend sell. Due to unforeseen circumstances he has decided to let it go. Just thought I might throw that out for additional consideration.
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WOW Chuck how much ? Kind of afraid to ask…..beautiful
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He really wants to be able to get $16k in hand for it. Considering our longtime friendship and shared love of these guitars, as well as his current situation, I’m willing to broker the transaction with 100% of the proceeds going to him. I’m hoping that by keeping the price down that way that it will help facilitate this beauty going to a new home. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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Generally I'm attracted to "player" condition. They are how I get to own and learn from vintage and high-value guitars. But that discount needs to be deep because the pool of purchasers is much smaller. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
And I'm attracted to 2.5" depth guitars. Anything in that 2.25 - 2.75" range is noticeably easier on my shoulder. But 18 x 2.5" still yields a really, really large instrument . . . the S400T doesn't solve any problem for me.
Vin, my take is that if you're looking for a smaller top-line Gibson instrument spend the extra and find a Lee Ritenour L5.
That seems to have worked for Danny W!
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I like 17 and 18’s. 16 is too small for me. I play sitting so I slump too much with small guitars. I don’t like straps either.
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I slump even with a 17. If the guitar does not have a strap pin, I use a foot rest. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
I like 17 and 18’s. 16 is too small for me. I play sitting so I slump too much with small guitars. I don’t like straps either.
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I'm with you on this, for what it's worth. I wanted to make sure it wasn't you trying to sell before I threw in my opinion to your OP. As beautiful and attractive this guitar is, in order for it to be really attractive to me with that headstock break, I'd set my willing to pay at $5,000.00. Not because I'm cheap or into the low ball, but because that's not a mere cosmetic boo boo, it's a repaired, previously fully broken, structurally compromised repair job in a world where I can get custom work of the highest order that I break in and play into an extension of my own body. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
This is truly a test of how much that particular name on the headstock is worth to you. Even when it's there merely by the graces of the gods of Titebond.
That kind of money you can save to have ready for the much more worthy candidate, which I'll bet won't take too long to cross your path. Yeah real shame that that beauty took such a fatal blow, but all in all, it's not the guitar it once was. I wouldn't think of it that way. Ever. That's just me...
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I feel better playing an 18 inch guitar but a 17 is fine. Sometimes the shape has a bearing on it too. As for the thinline Super 400c it is players guitar and I would not pay even $5k for it. These days it seems guitarist and buyers want everything to be right. On thing this forum has told me in the way most think, guitars with neck repairs are just no worth the money unless you absolutely steal it. The only exception I can think of is your Super 400 that Mark C did the repair. That certainly bought it up to the original standard if not better. That does not happen and when it does most of time we are not around to witness it and the sell is now selling.
Also the Wes Super 400 would be cool but I don't like thinner archtops like that, otherwise it would be perfect.
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I have only seen a Lee Ritenour once, and it was impossibly out of my reach, but it haunts me to this day. That and an L-5T, it may have been a Super L-5 or something. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
We're haunted by these ideal examples of ones that got away. Lucky for me, struggling and mastering some new aspect of my own playing quickly supplants that hunger. Having found the ideal guitar for me in the meantime sure helps though.
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Question for all of you more experienced folks:
How many of you have had guitars with headstock repairs and had them fail? If so, what were the circumstances and perceived quality of the repair?
Just curious
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Of this severity? I've repaired over two dozen, easily and I've had one post repair failure (that I know of). That was after he had it on the road for over a year of heavy use and caused by a subsequent trauma hitting an overhead beam taking the guitar off. Honestly though, I DON'T know if others have failed. All were different and I always send a neck repaired guitar out with an equal part glue and prayer. There have been some I've felt needed an inlay graft, one I felt needed a join replacement with a V join and a number I simply would not touch myself. Originally Posted by DMgolf66
I will say that the sooner I get the repair after the break, the more confidence I have in the ability for it to be repaired. Exposed grain oxidizes very quickly and that process creates a surface that is more resistant to the effects of a penetrating glue bond.
If you're asking because you're curious about whether different luthiers ever have 100% faith in the strength of a neck repair? I for one don't. And I for one, always make this absolutely clear before I take the job. If this turns a customer to another luthier for the work, I don't lose sleep.
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JBN hit is perfectly. When I do a neck repair I try to do as good as possible but it never goes out without much prayer. Yes, things can happen after and depending on the break and situation. I have done many but unsure the number. I have done many worse that this break but not a guitar that is the value of a Super 400. I did get one back on a problem I had with the surgery. It was a very badly damaged flattop guitar neck that split but could be glued back together. I did and lesson learned. I actually clamped it so tight I managed to really squeeze out all the glue. I took it back to the store and it fell off the stand a day later and broke exactly like it was previously. That was humble pie. I got it home and managed to get it reglued.
Moral of the story is that yes prayer is essential but good work and working habits do not make up for prayers.
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