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Hey guys,
Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the optimum action for archtop guitars. I know it can be subjective - type of genre, pick attack, guitar construction - however, in the last year or so I've been lucky enough to play a couple of D'Angelicos and some Trenier archtops, and I was quite surprised at how low the action was set. They didn't need much pick attack to get the full dynamic range of the guitars, indeed I had to alter my picking as they were so sensitive to changes in picking. Of course these are arguably the best of the best when it comes to archtop design but should we try to get action as low as possible when the situation allows? If you are I would add that I've seen footage of Tal Farlow and it looks like the strings are very low, Peter Bernstein I'm sure plays with a low action, and I know that young bebop prodigies Pasquale Grasso and Cecil Alexander also play with sub 2mm action.
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07-10-2023 06:03 PM
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I set them up at about 5/64 on bass E 12th fret and 4/64 on the high e. This has some variation and it is almost not measurable as such. Sometimes on guitars it can be just be lower than that but just a nip, and likewise can be a bit higher. If you are playing completely acoustic style rhythm and looking more project then 6/64 and 5/64. Also on guitars I still talk in US measurements, but on bicycles I tune and repair they get MM.
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As low as possible. As high as needed.
It's very individual depending on the playing style, the individual instrument, the setup (apart from the action), the desired volume / dynamic range, so I won't give any specific setttings. What works for me may not work for you. Some years ago I recieved a new guitar from Tom Painter who had set it up beautifully so one just had to touch the strings to fret them. But of course that only worked with a light touch and I wanted more dynamic range so the first thing I did was to raise the action.
Generally you can get away with a lower action for amplified playing because you can increase the volume on the amp instead of digging in more and the amp will dampen buzzes and slap somewhat. For acoustic playing - especially 4-to-the-bar playing - you'll need a higher action to get sufficient volume and avoid string slapping.
A very low action may be comfortable, but it also has downsides such as reduced dynamic range, string slapping and buzzes. Actually it's not that hard to get used to a higher action when you develop callouses on the finger tips. Even persons with small hands can learn to play the double bass where the needed hand strength is much greater than with a guitar, so there's no reason a guitarist can't adapt to a little higher fretting resistance. With a very low action, even small deviations from the perfect in the instrument and its setup will be felt and heard and it will vary with changes in temperature and air moisture. You may find that getting used to a little higher action will free you from these problems and the frequent and recurrent adjustments that would be needed with a very low action.
Freddy Green apparently increased his action gradually through the years and ended up with this:
The story goes that Green often carried a tennis ball with him so he could train his left hand strength by squeezing the ball when he didn't have a guitar with him. I figure it was needed given his monster high action.
A Danish guitarist who befriended Green in his later years had the opportunity to play Greens Gretsch guitar and said it was in a very bad shape. But apparently Green never got around to having someting done about it - and maybe it didn't mean so much with such a high action.Last edited by oldane; 07-11-2023 at 05:00 AM.
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String height is one thing, string thickness is another.
I believe that if the strings are too low, the instrument loses its acoustic qualities.
Personally, I prefer high strings and then I feel more confident. The instrument sounds fuller!
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There is no answer but the one you know. When I build or set up a guitar it always includes an amount of time sitting down with the player to bring the guitar to what they need. That's often quite different from what I'd prefer; I keep my own preferences (and widely accepted specs) out of the process. As a matter of fact, I encourage anyone who's guitar I've worked on to bring it back after they've played with it in their own situations/environment and let me adjust it to what they perceive is perfect.
That's a balance of ease of feel, clarity of sound, facility in the playing range (kinesthetics) and this changes with string choice and the individual guitar.
I have several guitars. They have different actions. It's a convergence process to take it low and maintain the clarity of sound.
I feel a diminishing of sound quality if action gets too low (it's a feel thing) even though good fretwork may well allow it to play cleanly. Others may play with a heavier pick and NEED a more robust set up.
I will also frequently change action whether the trends in my playing are favouring speed and facility at the moment, or a phase where I'm working on attacks or doing chord solo work where sustain might play to advantage. All of that is quickly dialed in with the use of the thumb wheels or a screw driver on a solid body bridge.
When I worked at Ibanez, I was given strict specs for setting up a factory guitar "properly". We were penalized for deviating from that. It turns out that those numbers, acceptable industry standards are Lowest Common Denominator guidelines to the hardest hitting customer will not experience any buzzing. That's not acceptable for a more experienced player with a lighter touch, but a guitar with that kind of set up, as delightful as that may be to play, would sound like a cheap rattle box in the hands of the heavier touch.
Sorry for the nebulous answer but the more you play, the more you will know what you need to bring out your best. The guitar is made purposefully adjustable to make a good fit possible.
Know yourself. Adapt your guitar.
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This makes me wonder if the high action wasn’t even intentional. Just something that happened over time and he didn’t do anything about it.
Originally Posted by oldane
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Interestingly, a thicker string gauge can achieve a lower action than thinner gauge strings.
Because, thinner strings have less tension, so have a wider oscillating arc than thicker gauge strings.
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I never measure the action. Different imperfections in fret heights and different amounts of neck relief (not to mention string gauge) can affect the action needed to play with the desired attack strength.
I typically set up my guitars by first picking what set of strings will go on the guitar, then adjusting the relief to my liking (I typically like very little relief so that the guitar has a consistent feel throughout the neck), and then I adjust action to the lowest point at which all notes ring clearly with no buzz under a strong pick attack (this is probably higher than a lot of people like). Then I adjust intonation of course.
Another thing to note is that nut height will make a big difference in how easy to play your guitar feels. Most of the time when people talk about “stiff” feeling guitars, it’s not something easily remedied by adjusting action (I.e. height of the bridge) but by adjusting neck relief and nut height.
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My 8 string Solomon acoustic archtop has a noticeably higher action than my 8 string Victor Baker electric archtop. I understand why, given that one is meant to play without an amp and one pretty much requires an amp.
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On an electric archtop, I like it high enough to where I can dig in without things getting "splatty."
On my Heritage that's about 2mm on the treble side and a hair or two higher on the bass. I just measured with a 2mm thick pick. I've never measured officially, I just set it by feel...
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I have had the same thought. I can see the positives of a high action for the way Green played - but THAT high? On the other hand, the raising of the action began quite early and the Stromberg he used before switching to the Gretsch also had the action set very high - though maybe not as high as it ended up on the Gretsch. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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It doesn’t seem like anyone asked him. As far as I can tell, we have anecdotes and a single picture. Originally Posted by oldane
So who knows maybe he picked up that guitar, inadvertently had a picture taken, then said “this thing’s broken” and put it down.
Unless someone pulls out a video of him saying he liked that ridiculous action, I’m doubtful.
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How about a video of him playing and looking completely comfortable and relaxed? (and sounding great)
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That sounds an awful lot like Darling Nikki. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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He used that Gretsch guitar from 1958 (1959?) to his death in 1987, and there are loads of pictures and film clips/videos showing him with it and its high action. Lots of guitarists asked him about that action. But being of the old school he didn't gladly give away his trade secrets, so he usually answered something vague like "It took a while getting used to it". Jim Hall, who admired Green a lot, once asked him if he could try his guitar but the answer was "No". At another time Hall asked Green if he had a fatherly advice to another guitarist. Green said: "Yes. Pack your bags the day before going on tour and always pack your band uniform on top." Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Since he played with that high action for many decades, it must surely have been a deliberate choice, though nobody ever seemed to get him to tell why he had that ideosyncratic setup. The closest he got was talking about the role of the rhythm guitar as a part of the rhythm section ("A snare drum in Bb, a hihat in F") and about thinning down the number of notes he played in order to keep out of the way of the piano and the bass.
Here's a video displaying the high string action. BTW, it's from 1987 - just two weeks before Green died during the intermission between two sets at a concert in Vegas.
Last edited by oldane; 07-11-2023 at 02:24 PM.
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I set up my archtop to be the PERFECT action. Plays like butter and sings for days. I gave it to a friend to play. He went at it like he was splitting logs for kindling. It buzzed and rattled and acted like a pawn shop find.
Moral of the story: “perfect action” is in the eye of the beholder.
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This. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I think the only time I ever measured was selling a guitar when asked.
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Originally Posted by oldane
GOOD LORD that's high.
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I use a nickel on the base string at 12 fret, and a penny on the high E. The ridges on the coins just drag on the strings. Totally repeatable if the guitar won't play cleanly for my touch with that set up I have work to do.
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Some guitarists play with the action so low there is fret buzz on almost every note. Herb Ellis was an example, on many of his recordings. Jerry Reed, although not an archtop player, said he wanted the action so low that he could blow on the string and fret it. Some like it higher. I like mine low, but it's higher on some guitars than others. On my main guitar the action at the 12th fret is about 1mm. There is no fret buzz unless I hit the string hard, but I seldom do that. On another, which I mainly use for rhythm playing, the action is easily twice that, maybe more. I don't often measure, I just adjust down as far as I can get away with while keeping acceptable tone. Playing fully acoustic requires rather high action, but I don't do that very often. Getting very low action without buzzes absolutely requires perfectly level frets and a perfectly level fretboard, along with perfectly cut nut slots. It all matters. Adding relief to the neck puts higher action in the middle of the neck, and may cause some buzzing on the higher frets unless the action is raised still more. I set my guitars up the way I prefer, and that setup might not be favored by anyone else. It all depends on personal preferences and the way one plays. A light touch allows lower action, and everyone's touch is a little different.
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I set up my archtops, acoustics and solid bodies at 4/64" all the way across the neck. I play with a pretty light touch when playing amplified; when playing acoustically, that's mainly on my front porch or in my living room practicing and so I don't need to get a lot of acoustic volume. So I play with a light touch there, too.
There is a lot to properly setting up a guitar, all of which has been mentioned already: nut setup, bridge setup, relief, frets, string gauge, etc. When properly done, the guitar will work well with extremely low action or quite high action.
I find myself being really annoyed when guitars don't intonate properly; the higher the action, the harder it is to get good intonation up and down the neck.
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https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...humbwheel-set/
I found myself wonder what the action change would be for one revolution of the thumb wheel. My back ground is electrical and I really do not know how to get the number from the thread spec.
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To a close approximation, one full turn = a lot. Post threads vary, and not all are the same. I've never measured the actual distance of a turn on any post, I just turn until it's where I want it. For the posts linked, one turn should be .7mm.
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A 1mm change at the bridge is a .5mm over the 12th fret.
Most 12th fret action is between 2mm and 1.5mm for most people, although some want to reach the unicorn of 1mm and others don’t feel like they are playing an archtop unless they have 3mm (or more if they think they’re Freddy Green).
USA made TOM bridges usually have 6-32 bolts for the thumb wheel. So a full turn of a screw would be a lot (.79mm, as stated above) unless you are way out.
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Thanks for all the responses, there's some great information here.
I had a guitar just recently setup after purchasing - the guitar had a bit more relief than I'd like. I think the previous owner had it set up with a fairly high action as he may have been more of a swing guitarist and used the guitar more for rhythm playing. The truss rod was quite stiff so I thought it better for it to get adjusted by a professional, that and a good fret dress, addressed the playability and some fret buzz around the 12th fret. However, the nut slots weren't cut amazingly well on a previous setup, the top E string is may be a hair out of where it should be to match the fretboard radius, so it doesn't ring as clearly as it should, but I can live with it. The action is set just above 2mm and plays very nicely.
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