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How do the Bravos, Bennys, Bambinos, Andys and the Pat Martino model compare to similarly priced ($6,000 to $7,500) jazz guitars by other US and Japanese makers? Not that I’m in the market to buy, just curious. Are they leaning on their reputation and overcharging, or are these cheaper Benedettos an incredible bargain considering their other guitars reach the $30,000 level. They all look beautiful, for sure!
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07-09-2023 06:15 PM
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Just for the record, their top guitars reach the $60,000 level.
Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Their Professional Series guitars are very good for what it’s worth. I would say comparable to similar Collings models which are in the same price range.
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If you’re going to spend 6k to 7k it would be hard to beat Mark Campellone. If you’r talking apples to apples - a basic level Benedetto or a Campellone Standard, you will spend less with Mark C and get a better instrument.
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I have a couple of friends that have (or had) smaller, laminate Benedetto's. They are excellent, great playability and sound, but quite different from the solid wood, bigger models. They are very strong candidates if you gig or travel, I would think most buyers that choose them prefer them from the bigger models, and don't buy them for price reasons.
They lack the sound of tradition that Gibson has, and mostly lean towards a more modern, acoustic sound, but everything is top notch, they do impress.
Both my friends love them, but eventually went back to Gibsons.Last edited by Alter; 07-09-2023 at 09:13 PM.
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Agreed with above statement , the carved tops are definitely less mids, than say a Gibson Johnny Smith, or L-5.
I absolutely love my Bambino Standard for a laminate hollowbody instrument.
But for the carved top expensive ones. I would say Buscarino, Gibson Crimson Editions, Campellone, and a few others are a much better value for your money.
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Thanks, Mark. But I have to ask: Do you have personal experience with both? Originally Posted by Mark M.
I must say, Mark Campellone’s instruments look great.
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It’s funny how the term Crimson Division has passed me by. After googling it, I see they have been discussed here quite a lot.
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I've had a Bendetto Bravo since 2007, I think. Absolutely flawless build, also from the inside as revealed by my endoscope. It soon developed a heel crack which I mended with superglue and nitro lacquer. Later, some clouding of the finish on the tension side of the tuning pegs. Mine has the coil tap, which I like: single coil when comping, humbucker when leading or soloing. My German friend Ernst Weinbach (Liberty-Music) used to sell these and routinely swapped the A-6 PU into something else. The De Luxe model has a B-6, which has quite different specs. Much as I like the understated beauty and great play feel, the Bravo gets very little air time. On routine gigs an Ibanez AFJ-91 does the job, and my ES-175 1959 VOS just sounds better (to me.) I had some close calls with the Benedetto as drunken people at restaurant gigs were drawn to it. Too precious for gigging - although many pros (incl. Andreas Öberg) use one for gigs instead of their carved treasures.
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I would rather get a 70‘s Guild or Gibson. Nothing can beat the original in my opinion. Back in the 60 there were only 3 respected guitar makers among Jazz guitarist: Gibson, Guild and D‘angelico. Benson played a Guild X500 and Artist Award, Johnny Smith also played Guild X500 on the album moonlight in vermont and later a Artist Award and D’angelico excel (which he designed), then his Gibson of course. Kenny played L5‘s, Super 400‘s and D’angelico. Now if you listen to them on all the albums, whats there to beat tone wise? Do these modern jazz players sound better with the modern archtops and the small amps? I don’t think so. Get a Vintage Archtop of one of these makers and a Fender Tube amp and you’re close.
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I once bought only a tailpiece from Benedetto.
These guitars are great but too expensive for me.
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The above a truly amazing statement of fact! Yes. Originally Posted by JazzmanLehmann
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All interesting comments. Keep em coming.
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Having a shop that specializes in high end archtops, I get to compare a lot of different guitars. Most of the guitars I have are 7 strings so it means I haven't been able to compare with guitar makers who won't build 7 strings. Luckily I do have a 6 string 16" Campellone, Gibson Johnny Smith, Guild Artist Award (westerly) and several Benedettos.
Honestly, at that price point, it comes to personal connection with the individual guitar, the way it's set up, the way it sits in my arms, hands and what's in the pickup collar.
I will say the Benedettos I have, Bravo Deluxe and 16-B are really fine instruments with really comfortable necks, and I actually like the thin laminated Bravo Deluxe more than the 16B because the thinner laminate they use is actually more immediately responsive (on the attack) than the thicker solid wood on the B-6. In a few years of constant playing though, I expect the solid top to break in and really take off.
One thing to be aware of, the Benedettos go with a 1 3/4 width neck and personally, I like the width of a 1 11/16 Gibson spacing (Johnny Smith also goes with 1 3/4 by the way). Tiny difference that I feel. I end up changing nuts to the slightly narrower spacing on my own guitars.
All this is to say you've got something inside yourself that tells you what's right for you, and any advice from others who've found their own favourites after a long search is going to reflect differences that you may not relate to.
At that level, even a "lower" cost niche on a premium guitar builder's line is going to have distinctions of neck, body, feel, sound that may be reflecting a less labour intensive build process, but doesn't necessarily mean less value or a lesser quality instrument.
You want to buy a Porsche. There's a showpiece with leather seats, a louder sound system and gold plated hardware. That's right for someone but the one you have does all the same things, maybe even better because you choose the tyres that give you the feel you want. Does the extra expense give you a better car?
That's why if you can ever actually try these guitars, you can see which one actually allows you to play non stop until the wife pries you away. It might not even be the Porsche, it might the the Myata.
The one that did it for me? The relatively humble Guild Artist Award. And it's the one I gave away because the friend who has it now had an even stronger connection with it. Guitar picks the player. The player has to be good enough to use extraordinary to create extraordinary.Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 07-13-2023 at 08:34 PM.
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Great post, Jimmy, especially the last sentence. I don’t suppose you could point us towards your store?
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I do have some experience with both Campellone and Benedetto. I had an early (Fender era) Benedetto Bravo that I liked a lot, but sold it to fund a Gibson ES175 Reissue VOS (that I regret selling). I have also played some high end Benedettos: a used seven string that Bob built that I could have had for $8k. That was a spectacular guitar, but I didn’t have the money at the time. I also played a high end Sinfonietta that I was not impressed with. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I have had two Campellones: a 16” Standard that I liked a lot but sold to afford a Gibson L5CES, and my current 17” Standard that is one of the best guitars I have ever played.
In addition, I have a used early Trenier carved 16” Model E that is better than any Gibson or Benedetto I have played. They can also be found within the price range you outlined.
In my limited experience and for me personally, Campellone and Trenier are my preferred choices over Gibson or Benedetto. All are fine instruments, however.
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Thanks, Mark. That's really good personal-experience info. Appreciated!
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If you like Gibsons you will Love Mark Campellone guitars! He is building basically the best Gibson Archtops available!
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As I say, I'm not in the market to buy, especially as my Government likes to add 20% taxes plus shipping and 'extras' - always 'extras'! But I'm enjoying the conversation.
I'd like to hear from someone who has tried both a Campellone and and Elferink.
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Rob, that's how governments are. I've shipped dozens of cabs to the UK, both pre and post Brexit. Pre: the Finnish VAT of 24% was part of the invoiced sum. Post: tax-free price plus the UK VAT and "extras"remain a tad below that. However, there's more fuss and delay with customs clearance etc.
USA makes an exception, as no customs charge or sales tax is levied on imported goods under 800$ (IIRC.)
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Points of clarification from your local Johnny Smith nerd Originally Posted by JazzmanLehmann
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- The photo of JS 'playing' a Guild X500 on the Moonlight in Vermont album cover was just a Guild promotional photo used by Roost records. JS never played the original "Johnny Smith Award Model" Guild due to his disagreements with the shop foreman on how the guitar was made. Much later, when Guild had the relationship with Benedetto, JS endorsed the Artist Award again.
- The guitar he used on "MIV" was a 1936(?) D'Angelico Excel that John Collins loaned to JS after his house burned down. (There's more to this story, which can be found in older posts on this forum.)
- The D'Angelico that he designed (I think "where he had design input" is a better description) was his 1955 D'Angelico New Yorker. He used this guitar up to when he signed his Gibson deal. (There's more to the Gibson story, which again can be found in older posts on this forum.) He sold the New Yorker to a Denver club owner to finance a high end stereo system. JS had misgivings after John D'Angelico died and bought it back. He later sold it to a collector by the name of Hank Risan in the late '80s or early 1990s. As far as anybody knows, Risan still owns it.
John Galich
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On the Johnny Smith moonlight in vermont cover, Smith is portrayed with the guitar sideways, if you don’t know you can’t tell that it’s s Guild. So i don’t see how this could’ve been an promotion. On Smith’s „Favorites“ cover however, the Guild Stuart model is clearly seen. Guild archtops have a very distinctive sound, and in my opinion it suited him very well. Originally Posted by jmgalich
Points of clarification from your local Johnny Smith nerd:
- The photo of JS 'playing' a Guild X500 on the Moonlight in Vermont album cover was just a Guild promotional photo used by Roost records. JS never played the original "Johnny Smith Award Model" Guild due to his disagreements with the shop foreman on how the guitar was made. Much later, when Guild had the relationship with Benedetto, JS endorsed the Artist Award again.
- The guitar he used on "MIV" was a 1936(?) D'Angelico Excel that John Collins loaned to JS after his house burned down. (There's more to this story, which can be found in older posts on this forum.)
- The D'Angelico that he designed (I think "where he had design input" is a better description) was his 1955 D'Angelico New Yorker. He used this guitar up to when he signed his Gibson deal. (There's more to the Gibson story, which again can be found in older posts on this forum.) He sold the New Yorker to a Denver club owner to finance a high end stereo system. JS had misgivings after John D'Angelico died and bought it back. He later sold it to a collector by the name of Hank Risan in the late '80s or early 1990s. As far as anybody knows, Risan still owns it.
John Galich
I can’t guarantee this but if i remember correctly, Smith’s excel was basically a new yorker model (which is a 18 inch guitar) made for him in 17 inch with all the inlays that are seen on new yorkers.
The Heritage „Rose“ (named after his wife) is a very interesting instrument too, yet was overshadowed by his famous Gibson model. One thing i like about the Heritage model is the beautiful Rose inlay.
I‘ll take them all!
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JBN- Loved that last line in your post. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note (With Poetic License)
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A few thoughts on the comments on Gibson, Guild, and Benedetto made further up in this thread.
FWIW I have owned a Guild X500 (1979), and now own a Benedetto Bravo (2008).
The Bravo is a far superior guitar as far as build quality is concerned.
Better materials and workmanship, playability, everything that make up a really good guitar.
Sound wise, the Bravo has its own voice, and is more adaptable than the Guild to differing ensembles, and playing situations.
In addition much less feedback sensitive.
Perhaps not Telecaster levels of versatility, but in all, pretty all round.
As always, YMMV, and one man's ceiling is another man's floor....
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I can't say whether these particular JS guitars were one in the same, but Hank Risan through that ( dicey ) Guernsey Auction did offer at least one D'A and I also seem to remember one even had a letter of authenticity / bill of sale, from JS to HR. I remember members here who were in attendance during bidding who noted that bids and final sales prices were cleared through an IRS agent on site. Pre-auction estimates and appraisals were grossly optimistic. I have to wonder how HR's IRS accounts have been settled. Originally Posted by jmgalich
Points of clarification from your local Johnny Smith nerd:
- The photo of JS 'playing' a Guild X500 on the Moonlight in Vermont album cover was just a Guild promotional photo used by Roost records. JS never played the original "Johnny Smith Award Model" Guild due to his disagreements with the shop foreman on how the guitar was made. Much later, when Guild had the relationship with Benedetto, JS endorsed the Artist Award again.
- The guitar he used on "MIV" was a 1936(?) D'Angelico Excel that John Collins loaned to JS after his house burned down. (There's more to this story, which can be found in older posts on this forum.)
- The D'Angelico that he designed (I think "where he had design input" is a better description) was his 1955 D'Angelico New Yorker. He used this guitar up to when he signed his Gibson deal. (There's more to the Gibson story, which again can be found in older posts on this forum.) He sold the New Yorker to a Denver club owner to finance a high end stereo system. JS had misgivings after John D'Angelico died and bought it back. He later sold it to a collector by the name of Hank Risan in the late '80s or early 1990s. As far as anybody knows, Risan still owns it.
John Galich
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My Heritage Johnny Smith from 2001 is one of the best acoustic archtops I have ever owned. It has great volume and lively sound up and down the neck. It plays tremendously. I cannot say I have played a Benedetto of any type that was better, different but no necessarily better. I also noticed the Blond Johnny Smith Heritage on archtop.com sold within days at a fair price I thought assuming they got what it was listed at about $5k.
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