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The official biography of Johnny Smith (Moonlight in Vermont, by Lin Flanagan) says that Johnny named the “Rose” model, but that wasn’t his wife’s name. The biography says that Johnny’s first wife’s name was Ann and his second wife was Sandy.
Originally Posted by JazzmanLehmann
The Heritage „Rose“ (named after his wife) is a very interesting instrument too, yet was overshadowed by his famous Gibson model. One thing i like about the Heritage model is the beautiful Rose inlay.
Keith
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07-11-2023 06:44 PM
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Rose... what did it really mean? Originally Posted by floatingpickup
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I have a Benedetto Bravo Deluxe. I love it. It is flawlessly built and sounds great plugged in. Sounds decent for a thin laminate unplugged. I absolutely love the neck. Very comfortable guitar to play. The only reason it doesn't get much playing time lately, is because I've fallen for the 7 string guitar and only put my Palen 7 string down to play my Gretsch or Gibson 6 strings when I play rock and pop stuff. My search for a laminate 7 string with a thin neck became frustrating, so I ordered a Bravo 7 string. They'll build the neck to my specs. I may part with the 6 strung Bravo Deluxe at that point, but who knows.
To compare the Bravo, I've played a newer laminate Sadowsky that is an artist model. In fact is was the artist's guitar. I only played it for a couple of minutes, but it seemed to be in the same ballpark as the Bravo Deluxe. I thought the Sadowsky was great, but would have to spend a lot more time with both guitars to declare a winner.
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Yes indeed! I've been on the lookout for a used Bravo 7 for a long time and haven't come up with one yet. I'd even consider a Benny 7, although I've never played one and don't know how much I'd like it. I've played several 7 string "standard" Benedettos and was underwhelmed by them all - they're wonderful guitars, but certainly no "better" than the similar Ungers etc that I've tried and not worth the higher cost IMO. If I were to pop another $5k for a laminate guitar, I'd order a basic American Archtop 7 unless a Bravo's really that good. Originally Posted by Zigracer
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This. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
The stuff about tone being "done" with antiquated equipment might apply to some players, but not to others. Witness Ben Monder on a low end Ibanez semi-hollow. Ulf Wakenius on a cheap Les Paul copy. Ed Bickert on a Telecaster. Nir Felder on a Stratocaster. Chris Crocco on a Stratocaster. Julian Lage on a Telecaster and on his Collins. George Benson on Ibanez signature guitars. Gene Bertoncini and Charlie Byrd on classical guitars. Our own Dutchbopper on a 1970s CBS Strat, as posted in a thread elsewhere on the site. All sounds that are as great as any recorded on an archtop. Tim Lerch did a beautiful job of demonstrating that in one of his videos comparing many different guitars; so did Jens Larsen. The so-called superiority of archtop guitars for playing jazz is just a belief, not an objective fact.
After 44 years of playing guitar I have come to realize that, while I like playing full-size arch tops, I prefer the sound I get from solid bodies and my GB10. And they are a lot easier and safer to tote in and out of a gig. I prefer the acoustic sound of a flattop steel string guitar to that of most archtop guitars for jazz. Someone else might not like my sound at all. When I listen to recordings of myself at gigs, I realized years ago that I couldn't tell by the sound which guitar I was playing at that gig (unless my archtop started howling at some point). On the other hand, I don't find myself turning a Stratocaster or a Tele around and around in my hands to admire it from many different angles, which I have done with many archtop guitars. All those curves and gradients and chatoyance... it is hard to get that from a Tele.
BTW, Johnny Smith didn't like Fender amps, which was true of many jazz guitarists of his era.
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Lin Flanigan's biography of Johnny Smith, "Moonlight in Vermont," specifically and scrupulously covers the development of Johnny's guitars. As I understand it, he never actually played much or recorded with the Guild, because he was dissatisfied with how the top was carved (later in life, he allowed that he may have been wrong about that). Most of his output during his peak years was recorded with D'Angelico guitar borrowed from another guitarist (longer than the other guitarist had intended); the Johnny Smith special 17 inch New Yorker was completed in 1955 and a number of other guitarists ordered very similar instruments after that. He was quite particular about the guitars he endorsed, rescinding the endorsement to Gibson when he felt that the instruments were being made inconsistently (he was a Gibson dealer at the time and saw many/most of the Johnny Smith guitars come through his shop). Originally Posted by JazzmanLehmann
The possibly apocryphal story about "the Rose" color, at least as relayed by an insider at Heritage Guitars, was fairly humorous. Johnny Smith was apparently at the factory and there was some discussion about a color requested by a customer. As they debated about exactly what it should be, Johnny strode over to a girly calendar on the wall and pointed at the model's buttock, stating "he wants this color." Did it really happen? I don't know. But it's pretty funny.
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A while back I got an orange sunburst Bravo Deluxe 7 someone was selling on Reverb. I bargained it for under 4.5K I think and I don't know whether it's standard for a Bravo Deluxe but it's got a shallower body, a really nice feeling neck, good audible voice unplugged, and with the Duncan Jazz I put in it with a coil split, is a solid workhorse for me- in as much as I like a body that's not deep. (Yeah I switched out the nice juicy warm Benedetto pickup and put a Duncan jazz in it; that's an ugly sound for some but a good match for me.) Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Know that when you talk laminate, you'll find the strengths in what can be brought out when it's plugged in, which might be the more honest way it's to be judged. It's comfortable unplugged, nowhere near as inspiring as a solid Eastman or Campellone, but when mated with an amp, it finds its voice and the thin grade laminates do allow the pickup to work with the top. They got that right.
I play fingerstyle and I REALLY like the neck (shallow, fast, fits my thumb nicely because I play classical left hand). Those are not your standard player's requirements, but for me it's a good fit, meaning when I play it, it feels invisible and I don't think about it, and when I'm not playing it, it is a very pretty piece of furniture.
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Mick Goodrick on a $99 Hohner Steinberger copy which he got in Germany on tour. He said "I found it in a store and it was lighter than a real Steinberger and I realized it could fit in the overhead along with an overnight bag." Originally Posted by Cunamara
Bill Frisell on an SG sounding like Bill Frisell on a 175.
For some, the longer you play the guitar, the easier it is to find yourself and the music on the fretboard. When you can do that, the less the signal path gets in your way. Let's hope there are people out there who aren't listening to the label or the F hole.
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Had to look it up, but now chatoyance is my word of the day. Let’s see how many times I can fit it into conversation! Originally Posted by Cunamara
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One of my favourites is a beaten up old student model classical that I bought for £250, records so well people comment on it, and sounds great on gigs with a cheap Fishman undersaddle. That guitar must have done hundreds upon hundreds of gigs
The Loar lh600 I got for £350 is similar. I just wish I could get a better live sound on it. In the studio it’s magic. By comparison I struggled more getting a studio tone I liked with my Gibson es175 into a Princeton. Still feel it’s too bright on record.
Re teles. Mines great, there is an aspect in which it is very different to a ‘jazz box’ but I’d have no problem playing a jazz gig on it, and I was doing just that for years. Tbh I’d be fine with most guitars. Maybe not an 8 string Strandberg. The main thing for me is set up, I can’t play slinkies.
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pretty sure that was Nat Cole's guitarist John Collins and I believe that was the DA that was lost when his house burned down Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Not all these solid bodies that famous players use are cheap though. Some cost more than an archtop, despite being plain and simple bolt on guitars!
I believe besides practical reasons (such as touring and gigging with an archtop vs with a telecaster), it comes down to the music one wants to play, and personal preference. I know that I sound and play very differently when on a solid body, a semi or a full hollow, with the different attacks and weight of the notes. I also have two beautiful full solid wood archtops, but can't really use them comfortably on many of my jazz gigs due to feedback issues..Last edited by Alter; 07-12-2023 at 11:41 AM.
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I agree with almost all of that, and intellectually I “know” it’s true. I got my first guitar (a $10 flattop) 67 years ago and my first good ones (a 345, soon traded for a 175 - both used) 5 and 6 years later. I fell in love with the archtop the first time I saw one in the Gibson catalog when I was about 10. The passion grew steadily up to the day I got The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery, when it became an obsession until I finally got mine. The intensity of that love grew exponentially each day of the decade+ that I had it. Sadly, it was an N, so it lacked even a hint of chatoyance Originally Posted by Cunamara
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I got my first solid body (a used 24” scale DuoSonic II) after graduating from college as a backup piece and for rock, blues and commercial dates. I’d sold the 175 and got a new L5-CN w/DeArmond PU As much as I hated to admit it, even that little Fender was great for most gigs. The shorter scale and lower tension gave it a decently fat tone, and those slide switch PU selectors could be set to put the reverse wound reverse polarity pickups in humbucking mode. Within a year, I moved to Teles and LPs. Today I have one of each, both 7s, along with a ‘90s ESP 7 (all with HBs). I use them all on gigs of all kinds, and their jazz tones are great. I also have a nice 7 string jumbo flattop that I play often and love.
Nevertheless……..every single time I play one of my archtops, it feels and sounds special. It looks special. It makes me feel special. I enjoy all of my guitars and the music I make with them. Solids are easier, less prone to damage, more readily repaired replaced, etc. But I’d rather be playing an archtop.
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I own many archtops (10 at present with one more coming my way), quite a few solid bodies (6 at present) and a couple of Gypsy guitars, all of which get used on jazz gigs. I also have a Classical, but that guitar is no longer used for jazz. Here are some thoughts about guitars, jazz guitar and Benedettos:
1. You can play jazz on any guitar and a better player will sound pretty similar on any guitar. Bruce Forman once told me "If I can ever find a guitar that doesn't sound like me, I am going to buy it!".
2. Solid Body guitars do better than other guitars in outdoor conditions where weather conditions change and can affect tuning on hollow guitars.
3. Gypsy guitars are great (none better really) for un-amplified gigs. IMO, there are better sounding choices for gigs where sound reinforcement is needed.
4. Archtops are art. And they vary way more to my ears than a solid body or Gypsy guitar. I have heard laminate archtops that were way more "acoustic" sounding than some carved archtops. Some say that a flattop sounds better as an acoustic guitar than an archtop. Those who say that have not played my pre-WW2 D'Angelicos. I have played Pre-WW2 Martins and still have never heard an acoustic guitar sound better than my non-cut DA's. And amplified with a Dearmond pickup,those DA's sound as good as any guitar that i have ever played. With an archtop guitar, one has to find one (or in my case many) that meet certain criteria. Does the "art" of the guitar please one's eye? Is it comfortable to play? Is is useful for it's purpose (If it feeds back easily, it may not be good for some gigs)? Does it's sound inspire your playing? Archtops are a lot like women, IMO. They have curves and what turns one man on may be off-putting to another man. For a gigging machine, the venerable Gibson ES-175 strung with flatwounds has worked the best overall for me. Joe Pass, Jim Hall and Herb Ellis came to the same conclusion. YMMV.
5. Benedettos? Every Benedetto made by Bob that i have played has been an exceptional guitar. The ones made by Guild and by Howard Paul's small shop have been way more uneven, but mostly they have been quite good. I find the Benedetto laminates that I have played to be very playable, but I never liked the sound. I suspect that with a pickup change, I would love them. Years ago, I would have said that they were overpriced compared to a Gibson ES-175, but since Gibson stopped making 175's, the used price of a Bravo and a 175 are not that much different. Get whichever one floats your boat. If a made in China Ibanez Artcore archtop or a Korean made D'Angelico does it for you, save the money and pass on the Benedetto.
I would say that the most important thing is that a guitar pleases you, the player. What all of us online guitar nerds might write should be considered, but which guitar you choose to play jazz is, at the end of the day, a very personal choice. If a Benedetto laminate is the one and it seems "expensive", consider this: If you do not figure out a way to purchase the guitar that truly inspires you, you might regret it. In my view, a life well lived is one where at the end of your days, there are few regrets to sour your reflections. Choose wisely.
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Beautiful post, Stringswinger. You appear to have lived a charmed life. Thanks for sharing your experience.
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I once played a Benedetto 17” made by Bob himself. Nice even sounding but didn’t rock my world. I’ve played Campellone, Comins, Ted Megas, Jim Hutchins L-C acoustic, and one tremendous John Buscarino 17” carved top. They were all excellent.
Now once plugged in most of the differences became way less noticeable. And to be fair different days and how I felt made differences. The thing is find one you like,and work on your playing more to develop your sound.
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Sound advice, indeed, jads.
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I owned a Benedetto Bravo as my main archtop and gigging guitar for a few years. I played it live a lot, and never had any issues with it at all (and no feedback pretty much ever). My teacher also was a Benedetto endorsee so I got a chance to check out a Bambino Elite, GA-35 (their discontinued 335 copy), and some others. One thing that stood out to me is the fit and finish on all was just outstanding. Everyone of these felt great to play, and pretty much could sound good through any amp. The Bambino Elite was the best of the bunch though, but all were great guitars that would work for me on a gig.
I eventually sold it as I gravitated towards carved archtops (and the Benedetto carved prices are not workable for me at all) and sold every guitar in my collection that was not a 1-11/16" nut width or very close to that. The Bravo was 1-3/4", which felt great for solo guitar playing but I came to prefer the smaller width and wanted it uniform across all my gigging guitars. I think the current used prices of Bravos and Bambinos are pretty fair for the value you are getting.
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Yep. Can verify. I actually had a guitar lesson interrupted by a phone call from Mr. Smith. Where he told my teacher that his wife Sandy passed away. That was a heavy day, man. Perspective. Originally Posted by floatingpickup
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I've owned many guitars over 40 years of collecting. One of those was a Savannah built Brave Deluxe in limoncello. The guitar was very well built and and its marketing target is a pro level amplified player. It's a very stiff built guitar - which has excellent feedback resistance, but for quiet room acoustic playing - you might be disappointed. To me the personality/tone of the guitar was a built sterile - and not very inspiring - but it does have a unique voice.
I can't speak about comparisons with too many other boutique built laminates, except a Mirabella I played, which was excellent - but at this price point I perfer my Borys and Trenier laminates much better than my prior owned Bravo Deluxe.....by leaps and bounds.
Sent from my SM-P610 using Tapatalk
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Exactly! Here's what I found out: It's not neck width I feel, it's string spacing. When I knocked out the Benedetto nut (and on an Eastman), cut a new nut with standard (narrower) spacing, the guitar was TOTALLY different in my hands. Weird how something almost immeasurable can make such a huge difference. Originally Posted by Paulie2
I feel the string spacing-no doubt. The extra space it creates to the edge of the fingerboard? Don't notice it AT ALL.
A luthier who can cut you the nut you need is your best friend. 'might even make a Bravo into the guitar you can't put down. Might.
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Re: Benedettos
About a decade ago, my teacher sent some Benedettos back to the shop for routine repair. He was one if the first to buy from Bob, many decades ago, when he was starting up. Eventually, my teacher became one of Benedetto endorsers (although he only gigged with his Koontz).
At this time, Bob had retired from building. But Bob called him up and said, “look, I make much better guitars now than when I started. As a token of appreciation for our longtime friendship, let me build you a new guitar”. And he did.
It was a blue guitar, I think. Might have been the “Manhattan” model, but I don’t know much about Benedettos. I don’t think he ever played it much. So, when or if he sells it, someone is getting a top of the line case queen made by Bob himself.
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The Bravo seems to have its share of fans especially for gigging musicians and no offense to full depth carved Benedetto owners [our own Sierra Tango and Floating Pickup come to mind] but I never played one that did much for me. They certainly weren't dogs, just meh, or as Peggy Lee said "is that all there is?" kind of like QAman's experience I guess. Good guitar, not great or particularly inspiring.
When Bob was in his heyday and giving guitars to prominent players he was getting maximum exposure [though I think he still has a roster of endorsees] But a lot of those guys eventually sold theirs which is kind of telling in my mind.
but as usual ymmv....
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I've got a 16B in the store, yeah, my first impression was "Overbuild...shame" and to a great degree that's my impression of it. But it's solid, it's good wood (quite good wood stock actually) just heavier on the graduations than I'd like. BUT these guitars break in if you play them a lot and are patient. That's my hope here. Originally Posted by wintermoon
That's one thing I hear very little about, the playing curve one needs to really get a solid topped guitar to "open up". Even a thin carved guitar is something I'll keep in the shop by a vibrating speaker for a few months before a player can make his/her impressions.
There was an adage in the shop that if it sounds good off the bench, it'll peak fast and it won't mature the same way. A WELL BUILT and properly voiced guitar does, by the nature of the wood and design, have a break in period that can take years, if not decades to come into its own.
Among violin builders, it's an accepted fact that Antonio Stradavarius knew what he was doing, and knew that he'd never hear the glory of his creations within his own lifetime. That Strad that Yo Yo Ma plays is NOTHING like what Antonio Strad heard coming from his shop. He knew but it is an act of faith when a good luthier builds a great guitar.
I don't know the build history of these new Benedetto solids, and in general, I'm not overwhelmingly impressed, but too, I know better than to believe that's the whole story. Well crafted pieces of expert lutherie will change in the first years of play, and if they're not dutifully played by the new owners (not put into a glass cabinet as a trophy piece), they will not reach their potential.
Want to know why D'Angelicos matured so spectacularly? Yes, John D was a demonically gifted luthier BUT his clientele was working musicians. They did their part in fostering these exquisite guitars into masterpieces.
You want to know whether a high end handbuilt guitar is going to be a true masterpiece? Better to play it because it works for you and become a better player yourself. The guitar's true brilliance can not be rushed.Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 07-13-2023 at 08:27 PM.
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I bought my 1935 D'Angelico Excel from a fellow forum member and was somewhat underwhelmed for a time and even thought about selling it. Two things changed my mind: Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
1. It came to me with flatwound strings. It became a different guitar with a set of 80/20 rounds installed and will only have 80/20 rounds (a string that John D'Angelico had a part in creating) on her so long as I am her caretaker.
2. It had been expertly refinished in her recent history before coming to me. I have now put years of play into this guitar and it has truly opened up in an amazing way (More volume, a richer tone and a lot more sustain). I used to be skeptical about a guitar "opening up" with play. Not any more. It is a real thing.
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