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My newly acquired L5 CES came with an ebony bridge base (the newer version with the bowtie inlays) underneath the period-correct tunomatic bridge. The sonic difference between a rosewood and an ebony piece is NOT so important to me since I like the tone of the guitar , it's acoustically quite lively and the Pat.# pickups deliver the goods galore ! A vintage-correct bridge/base combo is hard to get, pricy and since it's usually brazilian rosewood it might also be difficult to get it through customs. It's simply the looks that disturb me a little so my questions : would a normal Stew-Mac base do the job, should it be a two-footed or a solid version, are there "better" alternatives , what is available ?
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07-08-2023 05:38 PM
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Funny thing is the best "look" is ebony, it matches the board. We're just conditioned to seeing rosewood on old Gibson archtops cause thats what they came with (except Johnny Smith's) I don't know why it took Gibson until the 70s to go back to ebony on L-5's like they started with in the 20s unless it was because rosewood was cheaper.
But if you're really bothered by ebony get a solid single foot rosewood type,, that's what a '63 L-5 came w originally.
If you lived in the US I'd be happy to swap you.
ps just a note, if you're trying to make it look period correct it should have reflector knobs like your Super 400
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I love Florentine L-5’s and S400’s. Gorgeous axe.
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If this was my guitar I would be carving me a gabon ebony saddle to set right on bridge bass no tunomatics for me. Not only does it look better it sounds better but not all ears agree with mine.
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A standard StewMac bridge base would not fit as the post spacing is a little different from the Gibson bridges. I wouldn't replace that beatiful ebony bridge base. It is likely custom fit to the top of yor guitar. When googling for pictures of L5 guitars with Florentine cutaway (from the late 1960s), one sees both the rosewood bridge base and the ebony version with the inlays, so I can't say which is original but others may chime in.
BTW, I too would replace the Tunomatic with an ebony bridge top.
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In the eighties i played a late sixties L5CES with a sharp cutaway. I remember that it came with a two-footed rosewood base.
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Looking @ some old photos, in the mid 60’s my 1961 L-5CESTSV had the ebony base and saddle. Also, in the same time frame my 1967 L-5C had the ebony base and saddle. The 1952 L-5C that I bought in April 2022, has the rosewood base and saddle (photo here).
Tom
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sometimes it's easy to forget things that happened 50-60 yrs ago
Originally Posted by TAA
Looking @ some old photos, in the mid 60’s my 1961 L-5CESTSV had the ebony base and saddle. Also, in the same time frame my 1967 L-5C had the ebony base and saddle. The 1952 L-5C that I bought in April 2022, has the rosewood base and saddle (photo here).
Tom
Tom, do you remember your post on the subject from just a few months ago...
"Good catch! I checked some old notes. I bought the guitar in June 1967. In Dec. 1967 I bought the TOM. I wonder what I did with the rosewood saddle…only 56-years ago!
Tom"
Every L-5 from the 60s I've seen came w/ single footed rosewood bridges, just like Super 400's. The same goes for those made in the years prior except 16" L-5's from the 20s and 30s. I suppose it's possible to see an ebony one in the 60s since Johnny Smith's came w pearl inlaid bridges in the 60s but I've never seen a pre '69 L-5CES come w/ an ebony bridge stock [not added later] can anyone point to one?
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Naw, I'm a fan of the metal bridges for they guarantee me spot-on intonation regardless of string gauge and type - PLUS my hero's all used them in their time , Burrell, Benson, Wes, Martino, ... Originally Posted by oldane
This particular model is a '63 and I'm VERY sure that at some point in time that bridge base was swapped out, as were the knobs. The rest is un-touched, I checked the insides with a mirror
and everything is clean. It also looks like the back on this one is a true TWO piece affair, since the glue lines match up. When I played this side-by-side with my (now gone) '62 Super the
Super was louder when plugged in and MUCH less lively and quieter un-plugged. I'm happy with the change and looking forward to the upcoming gigs where this baby will be just the ticket ....
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WM, Good catch for you also! I was looking at old photos and not my purchase history notes, which I should have done.
One other thing I changed on the ‘67 was the tuning keys. The new ones were gold Grover Super Rotomatic. Kind of odd looking things with “art dechoy steps”. Kind of a fit with the L-5 tailpiece. In Sept. ‘71 they cost $60.00. The ebony bridge was bought in Dec. ‘67 for $21.00. In Dec. ‘71 it was sent back to Gibson to have the JS single pickup replaced with a single humbucking pickup…$97.00.
I’m guessing those old prices are a bit higher today.
Did the early ebony pieces have the pearl “bow tie”?
My ‘61 L-5CESTSV had an ebony base and saddle. I bought it used, from a private party, not a dealer. Probably had the bridge pieces replaced after it was in circulation. Will never know!
Tom
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The photo in the OP is a very nice looking guitar. Looks like the one Wes is carrying on the cover of his “Movin Wes” album and a Gibson promotional poster. Also looks like the guitar he used when I attended his concert in April 1966.
Tom
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Actually, Gitman Burrell and Benson used D'angelico's with ebony saddles many times. A continuous 1/8 inch compensation with ebony or rosewood saddle yields to my ears as good intonation as the tunomatic saddle. I will give them some like the sound of metal saddle better but not that they necessarily tune better. Intonation goes across the entire neck and therefore depends on the player and where they play mostly. The great Johnny Smith who himself a fine guitar technician actually used the 19th fret as the reference point for intonation on his guitar not the 12th. This was based on the note at the 19th fret when played. Johnny did not use a tuner he used a folk and his ear only,,,,,,,,,but of course I am not JS. Originally Posted by gitman
Naw, I'm a fan of the metal bridges for they guarantee me spot-on intonation regardless of string gauge and type - PLUS my hero's all used them in their time , Burrell, Benson, Wes, Martino, ...
This particular model is a '63 and I'm VERY sure that at some point in time that bridge base was swapped out, as were the knobs. The rest is un-touched, I checked the insides with a mirror
and everything is clean. It also looks like the back on this one is a true TWO piece affair, since the glue lines match up. When I played this side-by-side with my (now gone) '62 Super the
Super was louder when plugged in and MUCH less lively and quieter un-plugged. I'm happy with the change and looking forward to the upcoming gigs where this baby will be just the ticket ....
One has to remember that logically the guitar will never be intonated properly but if you want the tunomatic your ears are way beyond my humble ones
. I do have to say I way prefer the sound of ebony on the archtop compared to metal and infact, rosewood is pretty equal and probably nothing we can hear in difference,
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If memory serves (and it may not!), I believe that guitar belonged to George Benson and he later sold it to Pat Metheny. Originally Posted by TAA
Info here:
The Many L5's of Wes Montgomery - Jazz Guitar Today
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Back in the mid 60’s, I just can’t recall the availability of tuners. What I used was an A440 tuning fork. Tap it and hold it against the top of the L-5 and strike the 6th string, 5th fret. Match the frequency. It was interesting how often that tuning matched middle C on a piano, if a piano was available.
As above, I too am not JS!
Tom
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That's interesting Tom, most people I knew usually tuned the open A string using an A440 fork touching the bridge foot. Originally Posted by TAA
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WM. That also works.
Does anyone today “bell” the open low E string and compare it to a fingered E on the A string? Working your way through all strings doing the “bell” thing?
Just curious. Not having a tuner, I bet I’m in a microscopic minority.
Tom
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Using "bells" (harmonics) and fretted notes is how I tuned after getting the open A correct. Pretty sure that's how most people tuned if they didn't fret string to string. I still use this method in a pinch if an electronic tuner isn't handy but that's pretty rare.
It's good to use your ears but you should also consider an electronic tuner to more accurately check your tuning as well as the guitar's intonation.
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OK, off on the tuning- tangent :
I learned tuning my guitars first with the help of a tuning pipe and then a tuning fork (A/440 Hz), as a reference for the harmonic on the 5th fret. Mother Nature and my forbears gave me "good" ears to begin with and dealing with guitars for the past 51 years gave me good practice to further sharpen my hearing, both for the "good" notes and the compensated tuning we use for our instrument of choice. I find it very hard/often impossible to tolerate a crudely tuned instrument and when I practice/play alone or with a student then I hear every little dissonance and I have to correct this, if possible. OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) ? A tuner is a God-send on stage or in noisy surroundings - I use the digital strobe thingy from Peterson- but normally I still take my tuning fork and tune by ear.
The tolerances we allow for intonation vary just a much as our perception of "good" tone so it's pretty pointless to start a real discussion on these topics, especially on an internet forum - in the Pub, with drinks in front of us I'm all for it !
Deacon Mark : I'm fully aware that the players I mentioned used different guitars (with different bridges on them) at different points in time but so what ? My Trenier came with an ebony bridge, as did my Sadowsky and they intonate just fine. Besides, the guitar in question here is a full electric archtop model with a differently carved
top plate so comparing THIS with your D'Angelico is a bit , uhm, problematic, don't you agree ?
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Thanks for the suggestion on the use of a tuning gizmo. I think my son has one. Next time he stops over, I’ll ask him to bring his. Should be interesting. I can see where the background noise @ a job, would make the tuner more desirable than the tuning fork.
Tom
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Dating myself - - I remember starting w/ one of these Originally Posted by TAA
Kratt SN10 Guitar Pitch Pipe | Musician's Friend
Then later I'd also put on the record " In a Silent Way ", 'cause I knew that was in ' E '........( right ?? )
: )
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When I have my iPad on the music stand I use the Strobo-App by Peterson - you just need to clamp the "Pitch Grabber" on the guitar and plug it into the iPad, it's even faster and totally un-obtrusive. Originally Posted by TAA
StroboClip HD | Peterson Strobe Tuners
PitchGrabber Active Clip-On Pickup | Peterson Strobe Tuners
The smart thing with that tuner is the option to choose a so-called "sweetener" where the slight de-tuning that's needed for a fixed-bridge guitar (classical or steelstring/flattop) is already accounted for !
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