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My favorite tone is from my Epiphone Dot 335. It has a wide midrange hump that makes the tone thick and warm. I bought a Schecter Jazz-7 to try and emulate a seven string 335, but the tone is more like a Kent Armstrong, neutral with a small sharp peak in the higher end. What is the best approach to getting a darker warmer sound like my 335? Bigger capacitors, 250 K pots, or different pick ups? Over the years I’ve learned that all of these are ways to darken the tone but I have no idea what each one will do. And I have no idea where I could find a seven string pickup that sounds like my stock Epiphone pick up.
Thank you for any thoughts.
Jim
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03-05-2023 07:36 PM
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I had an Ibanez AF 207 archtop that came with a DiMarzio 7 string pickup that was very dark. I don't remember the particular model, but you could figure that out with a little web research. I bet that pickup would solve your problem.
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The stock pickup in an AF207 is a DiMarzio Blaze, which is still in production - click the link to see the specs. It’s bass heavy for sure. But even in the laminated AF archtop, it was not exactly a classic jazz pickup. I lived with it for about 20 years, but I finally gave up and found a better substitute. Here’s my thread from last year about replacing it with a Benedetto B7. I use a 500k pot with it, but a 250 would certainly darken it up even more.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Both the B7 and the set 12 pole KA hand wound HB in my 16” carved Eastman archtop are much more mellow. The bass heavy Blaze made the 7th string very tubby. The SD Air Norton 7 is another good HB for jazz. But I didn’t really like the Blaze and am very glad I removed it. If you really want one after doing your research, I’ll gladly sell you mine.
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The butt end of a D'Andrea pro plec.
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Yes the DiMarzio Blaze. My first AF-207 was an Ebay purchase and came with quite a bit of undisclosed fret wear and I found a second one (to replace the first) in way better shape that came with the Benedetto pickup instead of the Blaze. I did not like it. I mentioned it to a friend who plays 7 string and he had an AF-207 that he had also replaced the Blaze with a B-7. He sold me his Blaze for $50 and I sold the B-7 here on the forum. The fact that you and my pal (and the original owner of my second Af-207) all preferred the B-7 and I preferred the Blaze informs me that tone is indeed a very subjective thing. I loved the sound of that Blaze pickup (very Pat Martinoish if you will), but I was never able to get the intonation right on the 7th string on those guitars with it's 24.7 scale. And eventually after owning 5 seven string guitars, I figured that six strings is plenty challenging for me and I gave it up. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
My conclusion is that if you play a seven string guitar, you need to commit to it. Going back and forth between a six string and seven string guitar (like I did for a few years) is a surefire recipe for unexpected clams in your playing. Not that giving up the seven string has cured my playing of unexpected clams, I just make fewer of them these days.
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Read Moby Dick.
Seriously. You’ll think the whole world is a darker place.
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The Blaze was fine for weddings, blues, and general use. But I thought it was too edgy for solo jazz. The B7 has a beautiful classic jazz tone that’s very responsive to the tone pot. And now that I put in a push-pull volume pot to split the coils, it’s amazingly versatile. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Yes the DiMarzio Blaze. My first AF-207 was an Ebay purchase and came with quite a bit of undisclosed fret wear and I found a second one (to replace the first) in way better shape that came with the Benedetto pickup instead of the Blaze. I did not like it. I mentioned it to a friend who plays 7 string and he had an AF-207 that he had also replaced the Blaze with a B-7. He sold me his Blaze for $50 and I sold the B-7 here on the forum. The fact that you and my pal (and the original owner of my second Af-207) all preferred the B-7 and I preferred the Blaze informs me that tone is indeed a very subjective thing. I loved the sound of that Blaze pickup (very Pat Martinoish if you will), but I was never able to get the intonation right on the 7th string on those guitars with it's 24.7 scale. And eventually after owning 5 seven string guitars, I figured that six strings is plenty challenging for me and I gave it up.
My conclusion is that if you play a seven string guitar, you need to commit to it. Going back and forth between a six string and seven string guitar (like I did for a few years) is a surefire recipe for unexpected clams in your playing. Not that giving up the seven string has cured my playing of unexpected clams, I just make fewer of them these days.
I now use a 75 thou Chrome 7th and was able to get good intonation with the low action I like and careful adjustment of the bridge. Before I found the fat Chromes, I used a RW Pearse 76 (at JP’s suggestion). If the action is too high or your touch is too heavy, intonation suffers. I also had to learn to fret perfectly perpendicular to the board and not to shift the string at all.
Jimmy Bruno told me soon after I switched to a 7 back in the ‘90s that you have to “sell all your 6 string guitars” if you really want to play a 7. I haven’t owned or played a standard 6 since. I still have my Tricone, lap steel, and Kubicki Express. But my other 6 are 7 strings.
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Great minds think alike. I would like agate picks better except for the little tinkly sounds they make striking the string. I use the small triangle pro plec.
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Try lowering the pickup too...
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It's hard talking about tone especially for jazz. There's the really excellent tone a Kent Armstrong gets with a carved archtop, where it sounds like an acoustic archtop. Then there's a warm round fat electric jazz sound that many great players have that's more electric than acoustic sounding. At least that's in my world. I actually have two Eastman jazz elites. I'm having a Seymour Duncan 59 installed in one right now, Plus play 047 caps and 250k pots, to see if that gets that guitar a little more like the electric sound and I will leave the Kent Armstrong in the other one. I thought about the B7, I take it from your discussion that it is somewhat like the Kent Armstrong. I must have eight guitars with humbuckers, and in this pursuit have been closely comparing them, and they are all very different. Only the Epi 335 has that mid-range hump I'm talking about. So it's not easy. Right now I really love the tone Dave Stryker gets, but I also love the more acoustic tone that Russell Malone gets on Heartstrings.
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Heh heh. Funny, there's an audio reading of it on YouTube and I have been listening to that.
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I kind of thought that lowering the pickup makes it more of a neutral tone while raising the pickup getting it closer to the strings makes it hotter. What would you expect from lowering the strings? I've never actually done it.
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I prefer the sound of lower power PAFs, about 8-9K.
At the price, the Roswell 7 string pickups are worth trying. Lots of middle, but you loose treble, they sound good to my ears.
They do covered too:
https://roswellpickups.com/product/7-string-covered-humbucker-2/
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It’s hard to compare pickups that you only hear in different platforms. I have a 14 pole set KA HW in a carved 16 (Elite), a B7 in a laminated 16 (AF), a KA floater on a carved 17 (810CE7), Lace Alumitones in a solid body (Raines Tele 7), SD classics in a solid body (ESP), and an active EMG in a solid body (LP 7). I’m often tempted to swap these from guitar to guitar to get an idea of how much of their sound goes with the pickup and how much comes from the guitar. Originally Posted by voyage
The B7 in a laminated 16 has a lot of the character of the KA in a carved 16. The AF is a very nice guitar. But the Elite is simply a better guitar - it sounds better, projects better, is more responsive to playing style, sounds richer and warmer both acoustically and amplified, and if desired it can be darker with tone pot rolled back and judicious use of amp EQ. How much of that is in the pickup? One day when I have nothing better to do, I want to swap the pickups to see how each sounds in the other body.
I also want to hear an Alumitone in an archtop.
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Lowering your volume pot value is the most effective way to get a nice warm jazz tone.
Finding a pickup you like is a separate issue. Leave that out.
So is finding what cap value you like. 22 is usually good.
Try these 220k pots if you still want some spike.
US Stock 10pcs 220K ohm Linear Taper Rotary Potentiometer Panel pot B220K 15mm | eBay
Go for 100k if you want it real warm.
US Stock 10pcs 100K ohm Linear Taper Rotary Potentiometer Panel pot B100K 20mm | eBay
I recommend using a 250k no load tone regardless of what value volume you choose.
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There was a post years ago (TGP?) in which someone cut a B7 open to repair it. The pickup itself is embedded in what looks like an epoxy casing. The top is very thick, so the functional elements are much further from the strings than the top surface. I think this is one reason the high output expected from its DCR is not delivered. It also negates the iciness of most high output humbuckers. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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EQ pedal
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After a few bad experiences with noise, rough action, and infant failure, I wouldn’t use $1 pots. Although they don’t affect tone when perfect any more than $25 pots do, they’re generally made cheaply from low quality materials - so they don’t feel as good and they have a high early failure rate.. Wipers are tiny pieces of cheap metal, resistance elements are flimsy sheets of cheap carbon based material that scratches easily and becomes intermittent fast, shafts are not well supported so they feel loose and rough when turned, and the innards oxidize / deteriorate quickly. And their values often vary widely from the stated figure. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Wise words indeed. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Yes, if you go to the trouble of rewiring a hollow body guitar, I wouldn't use inexpensive pots.
But, I've used inexpensive pots when testing how a 100K sounded.
I've used inexpensive pickups too, to see how they sound.
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I especially like this variation. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Tone knob.
On my tele the tone hardly changes with the tone knob from 10 to about 3, to darken the tone I have to get to below 3. Don't be afraid to make big moves with the tone knob.
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Well then get higher priced pots in 250 or 100k. I like cheap pots. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I'm confused. I thought you play the organ, and I don't remember reading in your posts that you also play the guitar. Cheap pots don't last very long in a gigging guitar or amplifier. The first sign of a problem is noise when rotating them, which is annoying at the least and distracting when it happens on stage during a speech etc. Then they become intermittent as the wiper scrapes off the conductive medium in spots. And they're rarely even close to their rated values. A decent pot can be +/- 5%, while a conductive plastic film pot can be as accurate as +/- 0.05%. But the cheap carbon pots you get for $1 are often +/-20%, which would make a 250k unit either 200k or 300k. This is enough to be quite audible. Further, cheap pots aren't mnechanically linear regardless of their taper because of the loose fit of the wiper and the nonlinear nature of the resistive conducting medium with which the little board inside is coated. They track erratically and jump from value to value. This will affect both linear and audio taper pots. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I can't think of a good use for such a component in my rig. It's a failure waiting for the right gig to disrupt. There's an old saying in auto racing - only wear a $10 helmet if you have a $10 head.
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I played guitar but had to quit and focus on keys because of a finger injury. I never had a problem with cheap pots since I was always messing around with the wiring in my solid bodies. If you want reliability and don't want to have to mess with the wiring more than once in a hollow body then by all means spend a few bucks more for a better part. Although the benefit to a lot of pots with looser tolerances are that you can take advantage of the different values. A pot that meters 200k could be useful in this instance.
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Playing with the fingers of the right hand without using a pick.
And of course the correct potentiometer setting on guitar and on amp.
Wooden bridge....sometimes it helps.
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