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I have two Eastman Elite 16-7 carved archtops. When I practice in my small 10 by 12 study, I have a lot of trouble with acoustic feedback. I've found the boss ad-10 acoustic preamp, and the ISP decimator 2 noise gate / suppressor. I'm wondering if either of these can stop my feedback. The ad-10 uses two notch filters to lower the volume at the frequencies feeding back, and the decimator looks for any sound that is not part of the guitar tone.
I hope someone here has actual experience with these that they can speak from.
Thank you for any help.
Jim
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12-24-2022 02:15 PM
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Nobody has tried these? I wonder if people just don't have feedback problems, or they solve it another way?
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I read your post but have no experience with the machinery you were asking about.
Archtops do feedback more readily. One piece of advice is to keep your body between the speaker and guitar body. Maybe this isn't really possible for you in your room.
I think the hardware most often used for feedback suppression is an EQ pedal, preferably parametric and with an adjustable 'Q'. I have an Empress Para EQ. It allows a notch form. You turn the gain of a band (usually lowest) up and sweep the frequency knob until you make the feedback. On my archtops it's right around 160. Then you bring down the gain until the feedback is suppressed and the tone is still likeable. Unfortunately, 160 is also where a lot of the 'warmth' lives. That's the idea of the notch: to only affect the offending frequency as much as possible, without changing the frequencies around it too much.
A para EQ is not a one trick pony. It's also a very powerful tone shaper allowing you to hone in on what's important to you. The Empress has 3 bands. I only need 1 for feedback use. There's 2 left over for tone shaping. 'Presence' for example.
I think there are also adjustable notch filters in pedal box form. You need to be able to adjust the frequency of the notch.
I'm still in a no pedal phase and have found I don't have much of a feedback problem if I'm careful. But that could change if I end up playing in a loud ensemble some day so I'll hang on to the Empress. It's a strong problem solver.
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Ccroft, thanks so much for the reply. The paraEQ sounds like it's doing pretty much what the ad-10 from Boss does. Although you only use the lowest band, would it be possible to use all three bands as notch filters? I'm not really sure, but it seems like I have problems with more than one frequency. One frequency will be the dominant problem, but if I'm not playing a note with that frequency or harmonic of it, I still get feedback on other notes. If the dominant frequency has a chance it will overwhelm things. Anyway the ad-10 has two notch filters. If the paraEQ's able to have Three notch filters in use that would seem better. Thanks again.
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I would say that if you are looking for three notch filters, your problem is of a different nature: too loud in too small a room, or not locating your guitar properly in relation to the amp, you can’t just face an amp with an arch top or you are asking for trouble. Others may disagree. Try facing 90 degrees from the amp and see if that helps.
Originally Posted by voyage
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With the risk of sounding obvious…..If you’re practicing, just turn down. I get that this might not be an option when performing live, but if you’re just practicing, what’s the harm in turning down?
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bluejaybill, I may not need three notches, I'm just trying to understand what's out there. And these are not cheap. If one has more notch filters maybe it would be a better buy. Since the low range on the ParaEQ is 35-500, I expect for practical purposes, this does only have one notch filter usable in the range where I'm getting feedback. It's not above 500hz, since A=440 is at the fifth fret of the first string.
The ad-10 I believe has two independent notch filters, and can automatically find the problematic frequencies.
I certainly am playing too loud in too small a room, I can turn it down and not have feedback. But doesn't have the punch that sounds good to me. This guitar has incredible acoustic tone, it's beautiful to play unplugged, but I still like it to have some dynamics and punch.
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You're right, customXKE, and just for practicing I agree. But I do all of my playing in my study. I want to be able to play at volumes that are causing feedback, and I just don't want to have this problem in my setup and playing room.
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I would just like to follow up on this, as I've resoved the problem. In my small study, with my solid top Eastman, with the volume pretty high, which is how I like it, I couldn't play because notes would take off, feeding back, really fast. I sit near the middle of the room, in a recliner, with the amp sitting about the height of my head, and the amp itself facing the wall behind me.
First I was told to point the amp toward the back of my headstock so I turned it around. This largely solved the problem, not completely. But I went through some steps before that and I will outline that just in case this thread serves somebody else. First I bought an old Parametric EQ called a sideman, with two EGs, and one big treble cut. That didn't help. Then I got a Sabine Feedback destroyer on Ebay, it is supposed to see feedback with mics/PA and place a notch filter to eliminate it. If it does, a light comes on for that notch. It did not see the guitar's acoustic feedback. The most praised feedback killer online was the dbx AFS2. I found one used on B&H. I turned it on, turned up the guitar, the feedback came quickly, and a green light went on, and the feedback faded away and didn't come back. It usually found 3 or 4 frequencies. This completely eliminated concern about feedback when the amp was facing the wall. It might be useful if I played a gig. The filters are 1/80 octave so little of the guitar is lost, but at times I could notice a slight change to guitar tone when filters were on, but it's not enough to be noticable to me.
Then I got my Polytone back, and started using it in place of the Petersen. It has a much lower frequency range prominent. Now the feedback was further stopped. With turning the amp toward my back, and the Polytone, the feedback isn't a concern, but I'm keeping the dbx. I may someday really need it, and I know it would stop feedback.
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Also, I have a lot of hum in my study. I bought a Decimater II, to see if it would help with the hum, and the feedback. When I tried it, it was obvious it was just getting rid of everything below a volume threshold of some sort. To me this created a wierd effect where an envelope surrounded all sound not rejected. Like everything was in a big drop of water and there was the empty room around it. Except sonically, not visually. It was like the guitar sound and the hum were encased together, like one sound. The hum was there together with the guitar sound. It was very wierd and I put it back in the box and returned it. Maybe with a rock band it would be different.
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The Hum Debugger should fix your hum problem with little effect on tone.
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pcjazz, thanks. I've seen devices that stop ground loops. I only plug into my amp which then plugs into a socket. There is no circuit that allows a ground loop if I understand them. So I have not tried those units. Is the Hum Debugger also for ground loops? If not I'm really interested in what it is or how it works.
Thanks.
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The Hum Debugger reduces hum/buzz caused by electromagnetic interference picked up by your pickups. It’s especially useful with single coil pickups. It’s not for addressing ground loops. It works by filtering out the line-voltage frequency (and harmonics thereof) from the guitar signal. It works very well and usually has no detectable affect on the guitar’s tone. Originally Posted by voyage
If you have humbuckers that are buzzing a lot, the likely causes are poor shielding of the wiring and/or the string ground not being connected. In that case, a Hum Debugger might help, but getting the wiring checked is probably better first step.
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I try and stay mindful of my hearing.
Back before there were tools to get a tube amp sounding rich at lower volumes, I had a difficult time playing with less volume. I also had to learn how to find a spot in a mix.
In my mind, more always seems better… but that is not a safe neighborhood in my mind-scape.
Needless to say, since I love music, it would be nice to have my hearing better, then it presently is.
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One thing I've never really understood is how some archtop players can play pretty loud and not get feedback while others (including me back when I played an archtop) struggle with it. And, yes, I did know about positioning the amp properly.
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This is why semi hollow and solid body instruments were invented. Archtops especially carved solid wood ones are designed to perform at lower stage volumes.
Sure Ted Nugent plays his Byrdlands at outrageous volumes. But what’s the point, the guitar loses all of its great tone at that volume.
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Thanks John. I get 60 hz hum if I have a guitar chord plugged into the amp and just hanging, not plugged into a guitar (unless it's a cable with a Neutrick plug in which case it is silent). When I plug in the hum is quiet when the volume is off or all the way on but is loud in between. I recently bought Jerry Hayes' book on wiring and he says that is normal. When I touch the strings the hum is decreased. He says that means the ground wire is working. I take the same guitar to my guitar shop and everything is dead silent. But in my study both of my Eastman archtops as well as most of my other guitars all have the same characteristics. Shielding the archtops is something I've never heard of. His book is pretty good. It makes me think that these hum behaviors are normal, but some environments have more and some have less. And I bought an EMF meter and it just tells me that yeah there's a lot of electrical noise in my room but is within safe limits unless I put it an inch from my iPad then it's like 50 times safe level. So I'm just baffled at how to deal with this, but I think the problem is the guitars and cords are picking up noise here that is awful. How much does that device cost? Wonder if Amazon has them? From what you say that is exactly what I need so I will check. Thanks for the info.
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From what you describe, it sounds like there’s a fair amount of EMI in the room. Computers, cell phones, tablets, transformers and dimmers for lighting, nearby fridges, etc., etc., are the causes. Very hard to eliminate them all in the modern world. Originally Posted by voyage
Solidbody guitars tend to be less vulnerable because the cavities where the electronics are installed can be shielded with conductive paint or foil. Hollow bodies are what they are.
The Hum Debugger can help, but if you can eliminate the buzzing just by turning up the guitar volume, I’d say just do that rather than buy something. Anyplace that sells Electro-Harmonix effects sells the Hum Debugger if you want to try it, though. I’m sure you can find a used one on Reverb, too). I bought mine several years ago and don’t know what they’re going for now.
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Thank you John. There is a used one on the reverb for $99 but I think I'll do as you suggested and hold off. I've been playing strats all my life so I'm used to buzz buzz buzz. It's good to know it's there though.
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It could be overkill, but the Behringer Feedback Destroyer is good at reducing feedback without losing fidelity. I used to work at a theater that had one, and before every show I would ring out the sound system with the Feedback Destroyer finding and suppressing each and every resonance.
I just looked them up and there have been several models over the years. The one I used was 15-20 years ago. The current one is a little over $200 new. If your amp has an effects loop, just put it in there.
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Thank you John. There is a used one on the reverb for $99 but I think I'll do as you suggested and hold off. I've been playing strats all my life so I'm used to buzz buzz buzz. It's good to know it's there though.
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I never thought of putting one in the effects loop. My Peterson has an effects loop. I actually have been dealing with two problems one is the hum and the other is acoustic feedback with my archtop. I did try a Sabine feedback destroyer and it did not see the feedback from the guitar. It was on eBay and didn't seem to work too well anyway so I bought an AFS2 feedback destroyer by dbx and that actually did the ticket as I described earlier. When I positioned my amp properly and especially when I switched from the Peterson to the Polytone feedback problems became moot but I'm hanging on to the feedback destroyer because if I ever do have feedback problems it will kill them deader than a doornail. Better to have overkill than no solution at all so I'm glad I have it. Thanks.
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