Archtop head dive?

[fofig]

Sorry this might be silly.

I pretty noob, I got my first archtop (Ibanez AFC151 there is a thread about it). I love her big time!

Besides many other things, i love the fact that is light and confortable.

However, when I am with a strap, it does tend to head dive on the side of the headstock. Is this a common problem?
Is there a way to get around? Perhaps with a large strap that will make more friction on my shoulder?

thanks a lot in adavance!
best
g

[AllanAllen]

Leather strap, nothing will ever dive again.

[sgosnell]

Depends on the leather. Some straps are slick inside, some aren't. Unfinished leather inside tends to have more friction. Some people add weight around the output jack to help with preventing neck dive, but I don't like more weight. YMMV.

[Sam Sherry]

Lighter machines and a rough cotton strap can each help.

I swapped out heavy Gotohs for this set of generic open-back tuners on my latest.
Thirty bucks well-spent!

[bluejaybill]

Sorry this might be silly.

I pretty noob, I got my first archtop (Ibanez AFC151 there is a thread about it). I love her big time!

Besides many other things, i love the fact that is light and confortable.

However, when I am with a strap, it does tend to head dive on the side of the headstock. Is this a common problem?
Is there a way to get around? Perhaps with a large strap that will make more friction on my shoulder?

thanks a lot in adavance!
best
g

Try an Italia strap with a suede backing. I prefer the leather backing, but the suede is probably stickier for your issue.

They are well made and not too expensive, especially if you catch one of their sales.

No affiliation , just a happy customer.

Custom Leather Guitar Straps - Bass Guitar Straps – Italia Leather Straps

[jzucker]

Leather strap, nothing will ever dive again.

Assuming we are talking about standing and playing...

Leather (suede) strap has never worked for me. It's a common recommendation but what happens with a leather strap is that if it grips well enough to prevent neck dive, it ends up pulling up my shirt or coat and if you are wearing a tee shirt it just doesn't work at all.

The only thing that works on a neck heavy guitar is re-balancing it by re-positioning the strap buttons so that the guitar sits stable at whatever angle you need it to be.

Think of the strap position over the shoulder as a fulcrum. Replace your shoulder with something like a broom stick. If the guitar is balanced perfectly, it will stay in whatever position you put it in whether it's on a suede strap on your tucked in shirt or suspended over a broom stick. If it doesn't balance perfectly on a broom stick, it will gradually shift as you are playing.

My tele is slightly neck heavy. I use a suede strap with it. It will stick on one position but if I move around much as I'm playing or do something like a heavy funk rhythm, it begins to slowly unwind into a neck dive. It usually takes 5 or 6 minutes but I find myself continually adjusting it back to it's original position. I put up with it because I like the guitar but it's the last thing I really want to be thinking about when i'm playing.

[fofig]

Try an Italia strap with a suede backing. I prefer the leather backing, but the suede is probably stickier for your issue.

They are well made and not too expensive, especially if you catch one of their sales.

No affiliation , just a happy customer.

Custom Leather Guitar Straps - Bass Guitar Straps – Italia Leather Straps

Thanks a lot for all the info i should have gone for this one as i am Italian

I went to the local shop ans tested several. This works and math nicely( in black and re) with guitar.

Sangle Dysprosia | Accessories Constant Bourgeois | The Guitar Division

[Spook410]

D'Angelico EX-SS model does this. Suede strap worked well enough for me.

[DawgBone]

Assuming we are talking about standing and playing...

Leather (suede) strap has never worked for me. It's a common recommendation but what happens with a leather strap is that if it grips well enough to prevent neck dive, it ends up pulling up my shirt or coat and if you are wearing a tee shirt it just doesn't work at all.

The only thing that works on a neck heavy guitar is re-balancing it by re-positioning the strap buttons so that the guitar sits stable at whatever angle you need it to be.

Think of the strap position over the shoulder as a fulcrum. Replace your shoulder with something like a broom stick. If the guitar is balanced perfectly, it will stay in whatever position you put it in whether it's on a suede strap on your tucked in shirt or suspended over a broom stick. If it doesn't balance perfectly on a broom stick, it will gradually shift as you are playing.

My tele is slightly neck heavy. I use a suede strap with it. It will stick on one position but if I move around much as I'm playing or do something like a heavy funk rhythm, it begins to slowly unwind into a neck dive. It usually takes 5 or 6 minutes but I find myself continually adjusting it back to it's original position. I put up with it because I like the guitar but it's the last thing I really want to be thinking about when i'm playing.

This is a great post and very accurate. Fighting neck dive with a suede strap makes you look like someone just grabbed you by your lapels in a fistfight. I've sold a guitar before because neck dive made is uncomfortable for the stage and comfort is critical for a stage use guitar in my opinion. I've seen guys use lead weights in a pouch on the end of the strap to counteract it but it seems to me I was better off finding a guitar that was comfortable without adding doo-dads on the strap.

[SOLR]

D'Angelico EX-SS model does this. Suede strap worked well enough for me.

All my d,Angelico's suffer from this......

S

[RJVB]

All my d,Angelico's suffer from this......

At least those have a pin in the headstock to suspend their figurehead from the ceiling

[John A.]

All my d,Angelico's suffer from this......

S

My EX-DC balances fine.

[guitarcarver]

Tie 20 helium balloons to the headstock.

[PDeville]

Assuming we are talking about standing and playing...

Leather (suede) strap has never worked for me. It's a common recommendation but what happens with a leather strap is that if it grips well enough to prevent neck dive, it ends up pulling up my shirt or coat and if you are wearing a tee shirt it just doesn't work at all.

Yes, I agree, Jack. It's often the entire neck from the heel that is heavier than the body. Even sitting and playing I can't stand it. I have to tilt the guitar back on my knee to play it. That is Idiotic. I have had this on expensive, custom built arch top guitars. A mistake I'll never make again since I can't return a custom made instrument. "Use a strap" doesn't solve the problem.

I like your suggestion, about the strap buttons. However, if a guitar is not balanced, I don't buy it.

[jzucker]

Yes, I agree, Jack. It's often the entire neck from the heel that is heavier than the body. Even sitting and playing I can't stand it. I have to tilt the guitar back on my knee to play it. That is Idiotic. I have had this on expensive, custom built arch top guitars. A mistake I'll never make again since I can't return a custom made instrument. "Use a strap" doesn't solve the problem.

I like your suggestion, about the strap buttons. However, if a guitar is not balanced, I don't buy it.

Exactly! It boggles my mind that someone could get such a basic part of the design of an instrument wrong. I love the eastman el rey for example but the balance always ends up being a deal breaker for me...You would think it would be one of the most early and basic design goals. I've seen guys action use velcro on their strap and shirt or coat to try to solve the problem and then end up having to tuck their coat or shirt in because it pulls up while they are playing. My tele is slightly neck heavy and I find that when playing very lightly with the left hand at faster tempos, the neck tends to dive - EVEN WITH A SUEDE STRAP!

But it's a tele so I keep it...

[voyage]

I bought a half a cowhide from the leather guy. I had them cut it into 4-in strips and got 11 straps out of it. I have one that has about 20 holes to find the right length for any guitar. Once I've decided on the length I cut one of the straps to the right length and put a strap lock in each end and it's the best strap I've ever had. Oil tanned leather is soft and supple and the color is permanent (vegetable tanned is stiff and hard and must be dyed, which eventually needs redying). The raw leather back helps with balance but my Eastman Elite 16-7 (thanks Lou!) are pretty perfectly balanced unlike some guitars.

[sgosnell]

For some, other design features are more important than balance, especially for an acoustic instrument. Make the body heavy so that it balances the neck, and it may sound terrible, with no volume and poor timbre. Using light open tuners can help, because the further away from the center of mass the weight is changed, the more it affects balance. Changing weight at the end of the body has much less effect. Mass x arm = moment. If balance is more important to you than acoustic tone and volume, and you play amplified, then you may need to be looking at a semi or a solid body. There are fully hollow archtops that balance well, mostly laminates with two pickups. The extra weight in the body does help. There have to be compromises somewhere.

[jzucker]

A light weight body doesn't necessarily mean it's got better acoustic tone and volume. I've played several original d'aquisto and d'angelico guitars and none of them were neck heavy and I'd put them up against any boutique (new) archtop I've every played. An L5, L4, Johnny Smith and super 400 are balanced and not neck heavy.

Ergonomics are an important part of an instrument's design. If you can demonstrate an archtop that is significantly better (tonally) than the ones I mentioned where the super light body contributes to that sound I'm all ears.

For some, other design features are more important than balance, especially for an acoustic instrument. Make the body heavy so that it balances the neck, and it may sound terrible, with no volume and poor timbre. Using light open tuners can help, because the further away from the center of mass the weight is changed, the more it affects balance. Changing weight at the end of the body has much less effect. Mass x arm = moment. If balance is more important to you than acoustic tone and volume, and you play amplified, then you may need to be looking at a semi or a solid body. There are fully hollow archtops that balance well, mostly laminates with two pickups. The extra weight in the body does help. There have to be compromises somewhere.

[Little Jay]

The AFC-151 is a very light guitar, with a floating pu and wooden tailpiece. Not much weight in the body to compensate for the neck.

A heavier tailpiece (like an ES-175’s) and lighter tuners (Klusons with plastic buttons) would probably help a great deal, but change the look of the guitar and perhaps also the sound (but maybe for the better). But if you really like the guitar it might be worth trying?

[RJVB]

Holding the instrument in classical position when playing seated (using a guitar support rather than a stool) should help, I think.

[sgosnell]

Great, or so-so, or poor tone are subjective. Not everyone agrees with everyone else. I don't think Jack and I would agree, and that's fine, just personal preferences.

[charleyrich99]

This is a great post and very accurate. Fighting neck dive with a suede strap makes you look like someone just grabbed you by your lapels in a fistfight. I've sold a guitar before because neck dive made is uncomfortable for the stage and comfort is critical for a stage use guitar in my opinion. I've seen guys use lead weights in a pouch on the end of the strap to counteract it but it seems to me I was better off finding a guitar that was comfortable without adding doo-dads on the strap.

Moving the strap button has helped me. There's an article on the Stewmac site that shows all the possibilities. Where's the best spot for your strap button? - StewMac

[DawgBone]

Moving the strap button has helped me. There's an article on the Stewmac site that shows all the possibilities. Where's the best spot for your strap button? - StewMac

I always use the strap over my right shoulder like I was carrying a mail bag, so the guitar has to have good balance regardless of where the strap button is. I used to use the standard way, over the left shoulder, until I was doing multiple gigs per day, most of them in the heat and it rubbed my shoulder so raw that I had no choice but to go to the right shoulder to get it done. I got used to it so I have done it that way ever since. I can take the guitar off without knocking my hat off my head or having to take it off first. There is just less abrasive movement doing it that way. I like the little skinny vintage straps. I remove the pad off of them that way they fit in the case real easy and there is nothing really there to get sweat soaked. Not for everyone but I like it. I'm kind of in the if it can't be balanced I'm not keeping it camp.

I spend too much time standing with a guitar to be fighting it or drilling more holes in the hopes of offsetting the weight. I am also the vocalist so there are many hands free moments where the guitar has a chance to dive if it's not very well balanced. I will say tossing a bigsby on a problem guitar is a sure fire way to fix it if you otherwise love the guitar and don't mind dumping hundreds into buying and installing one. If I didn't gig or play standing it really wouldn't matter but my thought is if I'm going to spend a lot of time with an instrument it should be one that looks good, sounds good, plays easy, and is comfortable on stage.

[Marty Grass]

I have mixed thoughts on this topic.

Les Pauls and 335s don't tend to neck dive. I've had a headless guitar that didn't. OTOH, I played with a SG that always wanted to neck dive. My solution was to keep my left hand on the neck. This is a first world problem, of course.

[Vihar]

...using a guitar support rather than a stool...

I never understood why anyone would deliberately make their guitars smell awful.