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Hey everybody,
A few minutes ago I read that Fender is finally bringing the Princeton Reverb Tone Master on the market. I was thinking of ordering a Quilter Aviator Cub, but this news makes me hold back a little longer.
How does this news make you feel ?
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09-08-2022 07:25 AM
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My PRRI needed some tweaks to be a giggable jazz amp, so given Fender likes to send the tube model out into the market with what I have heard described by amp techs in highly technical terms as a ‘dogsh!t speaker’* means I’d be a little cautious about this one.
As the main selling point for me would be weight, have to look into the options for a lightweight (i.e. neodymium) speaker swap with greater sensitivity if it didn’t have sufficient clean headroom.
Might be aimed more at the blues market, so early break up. The Andertons demo seemed to be aimed that way. But hopefully I’m wrong! DI channel sounds ace anyway.
Otoh the Aviators seem highly giggable
So try before you buy?
*probably because it makes the hand wired models sound way better, and also because people probably use it as a recording amp and maybe a crunchy blues amp for live workLast edited by Christian Miller; 09-08-2022 at 07:50 AM.
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A few months ago I probably would have been celebrating but after playing my cheapo Champion 40 for a while I no longer have any interest at all in more expensive amps. I have a VERY narrow range of tones that I use, pretty much all blackface in nature, and the Champion 40 does that beautifully. And for those of you in the US, the price has been reduced to $178 at Sweetwater.
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Amp techs will tell you to change the speaker, just as guitar techs tell you to change the pickups. That is the way of the world. Fenders sound fine.
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An appealing option but pricey. About 30% more than an Aviator Cub. Having recently had a newish, quality solid state amp fail on me, I'm a bit cautious about the serviceability and longevity of these amps in that price range. I might be more apt to buy a used tube PRRI (at a lower price) and do upgrades. For now, I'm enjoying my Quilter Superblock US too much to consider one.
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I'm a big fan of the ToneMasters myself, but mostly because of the big weight reductions. The TM Princeton Reverb is only 10 pounds lighter than the tube version (the Super is 30 pounds lighter, the Twin 31), so for that particular amp I'd almost certainly go with the tube version. The half power, quarter power, etc. options aren't as meaningful to me on a 15 watt amp.
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well yeeessss but
Originally Posted by Litterick
1) the stock speaker in the PPRI 65 actually sabotages the performance of the amp. It’s not a preference thing; you can do better regardless of which type of speaker sound you like. So that makes me concerned that the PR TM has the same handicap, because you can’t have them performing as well as the PRRI hand wired ones (which sound pretty identical to the cheaper ones if you use the same speaker.)
2) i wouldn’t put the speaker in a PR TM that I would in my PRRI because weight. So I’d be looking for something similar with a neodymium driver.
NB a lot of pro guitarists I know seem to balk at the idea of changing a speaker even though it takes 5m and requires no soldering. it’s really weird.
Which I’m sure exists, but then it comes back to the same thing; I already have a great 10” super light weight speaker cab. What I actually personally want is a Fender TM head. Which I doubt they’ll do. Fenders locked into the combo model for a number of reasons.
However, these quilter guys….
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Thank you for your reactions.
I happen to own a mid 70's silverface Princeton Reverb that I'm in love with. However, in the past years I had to spend some money in order to keep the amp working. In fact my amp undergoes repair right now (no reverb and loss of volume). I saw a YouTube review of the Quilter Aviator Cub by Rich Severson. He's someone I admire and trust. His demo of the amp was purely from a jazz perspective and I was won over and ready to order. Then came the Fender news on the TMPR....... I will wait now a bit in order to get a better view on the TMPR.
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depends on what kind of work you do and what tones you like. My son went to guitar center to buy a tonemaster deluxe reverb and played it next to a DRRI and there was no comparison. He went home with the tube amp.
I should add that he's a very good blues player in the SRV vein as well as being a decent jazz player...
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They're excellent amps by most accounts and Fender will probably sell lots of them.
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Color me psyched! I love the TM Deluxe and have been waiting for the Princeton edition.
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For more than 50 years I've played in rock bands and made Strats wail..... but at the same time I
enjoyed studying jazz at home on my own. During the pandemic I finally became serious about it and decided that all I needed from then on was my ES175, a cable and my old Princeton. The only reason I'm looking for another amp is that I like to keep mine strictly for home playing. Only if the TMPR duplicates my original in tone, I'm willing to order one. If not, it will be the Quilter Aviator Cub.
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One thing is certain, today's players have tons of options.... heavy, light, tubes, ss, digital, direct, expensive, cheap, whatever you like to work with, it exists!!
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I'd love to try one. I have the TM Deluxe and it's great, I did install the firmware update that removes the "bright cap". Before that it was still good, but a bit on the bright side.
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I think it’s funny how people are so programmed to the particular Fender, Vox, Marshall tube amps still. By that I mean I get the speaker size but why such low wattage when it isn’t tube?
I have an older Quilter Aviator 1x8” Combo closed back with a Celestion 100 watt little p.a.speaker as well is it’s rated at 100 watts as well. Probably 50 tube watts equivalent. And this thing is small light weight and pretty much can cover most any gig. If I add an extension 12” cab I could play almost arenas if needed.
And I do like the Tonemaster Twin I tried a lot. But not sure why if you’re a gigging musician you’d want such an underpowered non tune amp? Just my thoughts!
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I want to try one. Love my Princeton reverb RI but want a solid state version.
The low wattage concerns me. I had hoped for a loud clean Princeton sound.
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Why such an underpowered amp...... well I still have my 1992 Mess Boogie Mark IV at home in case I ever want power. But I also play jazzy music in duo with a female singer and then a light powered new amp would come in handy, and I could retire the old Princeton. Originally Posted by jads57
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This looks like a conspiracy theory. Why would Fender make its mass-market future-of-the-brand amps sound inferior to its boutique limited editions? If everyone said the Tone Masters sounded awful, Fender would have an Edsel on its hands. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I think Tone Masters were designed by someone who had never heard a Fender amp, but had read a lot of descriptions of them on guitar forums. But everyone else loves them. I also think the current enthusiasm for speaker swaps is just an iteration of late capitalism. Speaker manufacturers want us to think we can improve our amps with their products. We want to think we are connoisseurs who can tell the difference, and also craftsmen who can make these modifications (although they take five minutes and do not require solder). Forums are full of people who have made mods, and are very pleased with themselves.
I don't think hand-wired Princeton Reverbs necessarily sound better than the other kinds, in part because I have not wasted time making comparisons. But one reason I am hanging on to my PRII is that the parts can be replaced, easily. Printed circuit-boards worry me. How long will they last? What can you use as replacements? Why do some amp techs refuse to touch them?
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I don't know about the TM, but the sonic difference between the higher end hand wired PR and the PRRI (and there is a big difference) is primarily down to the choice of speaker. Make of that what you will. Originally Posted by Litterick
No, it's not that the PRRI's sound awful - they don't, and neither do the TM PR's from what I've heard so far. They sound very good in guitar shops, which is the main place they need to sound good in order to sell.If everyone said the Tone Masters sounded awful, Fender would have an Edsel on its hands.
It's more that the stock PRRI as it comes is not really a giggable amp at least for jazz which you can't establish (or at least I can't) from playing the thing on my own in a guitar shop even if I get to crank it. There's only one way to work that out, and that's to gig with it.
I used to be charitable and assume they were tailoring the amp to a blues/rock crowd who wanted a bit of speaker break up. However, the more I learn about Princeton Reverbs the more I conclude that the stock Jensen is just a not very good speaker.
I would expect a similar situation with the TM. So, in that case I would need to look into how to make the TM a more functional amp if this was the case if I was interested in it. But the thing is, Quilter has this stuff dialled in already, and more variety in their product line, while Fender has combo-itis.
Even for the cheap stuff... I've been gigging the Superblock a lot and while it's not a PRRI, it compares pretty much to a Fender Hot Rod. Of course I'd love nothing better than Fender to release a blackface TM micro-head but it's not going to happen lol.
Well I've been gigging blackface amps for years, and I bloody love the TM Twin. Great amp, fantastic for gigs (which at least should out me as 'definitely not a cork sniffer' haha). So I am fairly interested in trying the new amp.I think Tone Masters were designed by someone who had never heard a Fender amp, but had read a lot of descriptions of them on guitar forums. But everyone else loves them.
If I had to put my finger on it, I'd say the TM's don't respond like the real thing exactly (which is a feature, not a bug if you ask me but I'm a bit wierd haha) but I doubt anyone could discern the difference from the sound alone. TBH SansAmp got it pretty close as far back as the 80s without any digital modelling. Fender sounds are not that hard to replicate; the feel of the amps is much more challenging.
I can understand you might be a bit tired of the forum cork sniffers, but hear me out.I also think the current enthusiasm for speaker swaps is just an iteration of late capitalism. Speaker manufacturers want us to think we can improve our amps with their products.
We want to think we are connoisseurs who can tell the difference, and also craftsmen who can make these modifications (although they take five minutes and do not require solder). Forums are full of people who have made mods, and are very pleased with themselves.
When I got my 65 reissue I loved it in the shop, tried it on a gig and was really worried I'd spaffed away a grand on an amp I couldn't really gig because it broke up around 7 on the volume. It couldn't hang with drums. I was angry and upset that I'd been stupid enough to buy a new amp and therefore had lost money on it in the resale.
Luckily I knew a guy who built amps and also owned an old Princeton and asked him. He suggested I swap to the same speaker he used on his. Speaker arrived in a few days and it took me 5 minutes. Problem solved. I could now play this thing with drums and have it stay clean enough for chords. So that's a pretty dramatic difference.
So, when I took the Jensen out of my PRRI I installed it (somehow) in my (lol) Frontman 25R for a laugh. It sounded, pretty damn good, made me wonder how it might sound with an Eminence or something. You could gig that. It's a known fact that amp companies put terrible speakers in their low end solid state amps which is why everyone thinks solid state is quieter. Similar logic applies to the tube amp line. These people are not idiots.
If you think this is all conspiracy nonsense, the specs are there to see. This is about physics. The number you are interested in is 'speaker sensitivity'. The more sensitive the speaker, the more volume it produces for the same power (sorry engineers, I know that's probably not the best way of putting it).
I hear you. Obviously the main reason to opt for a hand wired amp is ease of maintenance. The PRRI is already problematic due to its printed circuit boards.I don't think hand-wired Princeton Reverbs necessarily sound better than the other kinds, in part because I have not wasted time making comparisons. But one reason I am hanging on to my PRII is that the parts can be replaced, easily. Printed circuit-boards worry me. How long will they last? What can you use as replacements? Why do some amp techs refuse to touch them?
Not totally writing the TM PR off though. Definitely intrigued.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-09-2022 at 06:34 AM.
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Oh yeah, it's still 10KG. Not really interested anymore personally. Originally Posted by jim777
So not 'super light' - if so, go Quilter/TOOB or maybe Aviator
If you want a lightish amp that packs a wallop and sounds good, gotta be the TM Twin.
The real thing is still the real thing too. That said, there are now live sound engineers who seem to resent miking amps, so the TM's are good for that lol.
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I tried a Quilter Aviator at the store and I had brought my PRRI with the 12" Cannabis Rex speaker to compare. Guild X-500 plugged in.
Honestly, for my taste, it wasn't in the same league. My amp sounded sool much more alive. Even the seller admitted it.
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9Kg Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yes Christian, at 10kg not that light. Considering that at my age (68) I can't lift my Mesa Boogie anymore into the back of my car, I will order a Quilter Aviator Cub. Some of the repliers to my OP made comments on the TMPR that sound relevant to me (software - speaker - power attenuator etc) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Thank you all for your replies.
Greetings from Belgium.
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Wow I think people are biased by the Fender brand identity. I get the original Fender tube amps when using them as a comparison.
But those of you who haven’t actually gigged with Quilters especially the Aviator combos.
I switched to them years ago and have never regretted it. I own 2 different combos 1x8”, 1x12”, Tone Block 202, and a Superblock UK for direct to house,monitors. Honestly I could get by with just the little combo and a 12” ext cab for any gig possible!
Again the issue is the underpowered Princeton
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Yeah, it's about the gigging for me. What gigs is not the same as what sounds great at home. Originally Posted by jads57
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