How quickly prices have gone up... oh my...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I’m happy to hear that modern Porsches are failure prone. Going forward, I will not lust after them as badly.

I've always loved the concept, and I was lucky enough to have owned several 356s. But the company treated their customers terribly for decades, and I will not give them a cent on principle. A new 911 is a wonderful car - but there are many others that are equally pleasing to me and much less expensive. For the sheer joy of driving on today's roads, I'm thrilled with my FT86. I loved my Z3 Coupe and the many Minis I've owned since my first one (a new '67 1275 Cooper S).

That being said, Porsche is now quite reliable. The entire operation has done several 180s over the years and is now solidly at the top for that. As I recall, they were #2 in a last year's JD Power survey, behind Lexus but ahead of Toyota. I suspect that this is probably because of the ability to engineer and model designs in a computer and stress them virtually. They used to let their customers test their ideas.....and charge us for the privilege and their own failures! Current Porsches have an average of less than one service visit a year. The problem is that anything not covered by the warranty (which includes maintenance, wear and age related repairs, and all consumable items) costs an absolute fortune. And there are so many processors and other chips in them that a simple function like cold start requires the symbiotic sequential interaction of dozens of seemingly minor parts and systems.

In the early days of the 911, they kept making the engines larger and larger - so the increased force of simple compression started to loosen the case studs, and eventually it pulled them out or broke them. What would have been a simple air filter in most cars was an engineered sealed box on the 911 SC. Because of emission standards and crude ignition and fuel systems back then, many cars backfired occasionally - and when SCs did so through the intake (which was a common occurence), the airboxes often exploded. New ones cost about $900 as I recall, and they claimed this was not a warranty item. These cars also had rubber clutch disc centers to make it easier for the new breed of Porsche owner (rich, lazy, and inexperienced) to engage it. The rubber hardened rapidly and let go with a big bang that caused expensive damage to many cars. If you were in warranty, you stood a chance of getting it covered - but they reportedly disputed many of these claims as being due to driver error. And if you were out of warranty, tough luck!

914s had cylinder cooling problems with a lot of failures, as did early Boxsters. Google the dreaded Porsche "intermediate shaft" for a nightmare of a design flaw. Carreras had serious problems with he timing chain oilers, so the chains would go slack and/or break. These (along with 928s and 944s, as I recall) are interference engines - if the valve timing is not maintained by the cam drive and the engine is running when the belt (928, 944) or chain (911) lets go, the pistons hit the valves and the resultant damage is often severe - holed pistons, bent con rods, bent valves, broken valve train components, loose pieces scattered through the engine etc. I know many owners who spent $20k+ on engines. Etc etc etc.

GIbson followed the same path as Porsche. Early customer relations were close and cordial. Every product was as well thought out and well made as could be, and they stood behind their products with both warranties and genuine concern. Some designs were a bit weird and some were sales failures, but they were all made with the same attention to detail and quality. I was obviously not old enough to know Gibson when Orville rode the ranch, but from my first Gibson (a new 1957 LG-1) until my first Norlin experience (a new L5-CN in '70 or '71 - I'm not exactly sure), they were great. They responded to the inquiries of a kid with a dream and supported my dealer - I was treated as well as the teenage owner of a used 345 followed by a used 175 as I've been as an adult by the best car dealers I ever dealt with.

To GIbson, Porsche, and all the other people and businesses we used to be able to rely on, I can only say.....

[RJVB]

I’m happy to hear that modern Porsches are failure prone.

The "chum" of a Canadian acquaintance of mine just totalled his 2nd Porsche in 3 years a few days ago. Though it cost him his license so maybe something more went wrong than car failure

As I say, guitars are a carbon sink (provided the timber is sustainably sourced of course) so - maybe? ;-)

They're a carbon sink that works backward in time, or something like that. And 7500$+ e-guitars maybe a bit less (I'd expect them to be very good at sinking though )

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The "chum" of a Canadian acquaintance of mine just totalled his 2nd Porsche in 3 years a few days ago. Though it cost him his license so maybe something more went wrong than car failure

The two most common causes of bad outcomes are inexperience and overconfidence. This is as true for high performance driving as it is for jamming, recording, speculating in guitars for profit, and every other endeavor requiring knowledge, skill and judgment.

[RJVB]

Tell me about it - I've worked for years in a road safety context. I must say I don't really care what happened here (beyond feeling a distant relief that the guy will be off the roads for a couple of years).

[Doctor Jeff]

The two most common causes of bad outcomes are inexperience and overconfidence. This is as true for high performance driving as it is for jamming, recording, speculating in guitars for profit, and every other endeavor requiring knowledge, skill and judgment.

Uh and the 2-carbon stuff (ethanol)?

I can’t guarantee all bad records were done under the influence of alcohol or drugs, but many certainly were.

[Spook410]

It doesn’t help that European governments made poor strategic decisions...

I appreciate the thought and effort you put in to your posts on this topic. I may not agree with it all but I do take away what I can.

[m_d]

I've always loved the concept, and I was lucky enough to have owned several 356s. But the company treated their customers terribly for decades, and I will not give them a cent on principle. A new 911 is a wonderful car - but there are many others that are equally pleasing to me and much less expensive. For the sheer joy of driving on today's roads, I'm thrilled with my FT86. I loved my Z3 Coupe and the many Minis I've owned since my first one (a new '67 1275 Cooper S).

That being said, Porsche is now quite reliable. The entire operation has done several 180s over the years and is now solidly at the top for that. As I recall, they were #2 in a last year's JD Power survey, behind Lexus but ahead of Toyota. I suspect that this is probably because of the ability to engineer and model designs in a computer and stress them virtually. They used to let their customers test their ideas.....and charge us for the privilege and their own failures! Current Porsches have an average of less than one service visit a year. The problem is that anything not covered by the warranty (which includes maintenance, wear and age related repairs, and all consumable items) costs an absolute fortune. And there are so many processors and other chips in them that a simple function like cold start requires the symbiotic sequential interaction of dozens of seemingly minor parts and systems.

In the early days of the 911, they kept making the engines larger and larger - so the increased force of simple compression started to loosen the case studs, and eventually it pulled them out or broke them. What would have been a simple air filter in most cars was an engineered sealed box on the 911 SC. Because of emission standards and crude ignition and fuel systems back then, many cars backfired occasionally - and when SCs did so through the intake (which was a common occurence), the airboxes often exploded. New ones cost about $900 as I recall, and they claimed this was not a warranty item. These cars also had rubber clutch disc centers to make it easier for the new breed of Porsche owner (rich, lazy, and inexperienced) to engage it. The rubber hardened rapidly and let go with a big bang that caused expensive damage to many cars. If you were in warranty, you stood a chance of getting it covered - but they reportedly disputed many of these claims as being due to driver error. And if you were out of warranty, tough luck!

914s had cylinder cooling problems with a lot of failures, as did early Boxsters. Google the dreaded Porsche "intermediate shaft" for a nightmare of a design flaw. Carreras had serious problems with he timing chain oilers, so the chains would go slack and/or break. These (along with 928s and 944s, as I recall) are interference engines - if the valve timing is not maintained by the cam drive and the engine is running when the belt (928, 944) or chain (911) lets go, the pistons hit the valves and the resultant damage is often severe - holed pistons, bent con rods, bent valves, broken valve train components, loose pieces scattered through the engine etc. I know many owners who spent $20k+ on engines. Etc etc etc.

GIbson followed the same path as Porsche. Early customer relations were close and cordial. Every product was as well thought out and well made as could be, and they stood behind their products with both warranties and genuine concern. Some designs were a bit weird and some were sales failures, but they were all made with the same attention to detail and quality. I was obviously not old enough to know Gibson when Orville rode the ranch, but from my first Gibson (a new 1957 LG-1) until my first Norlin experience (a new L5-CN in '70 or '71 - I'm not exactly sure), they were great. They responded to the inquiries of a kid with a dream and supported my dealer - I was treated as well as the teenage owner of a used 345 followed by a used 175 as I've been as an adult by the best car dealers I ever dealt with.

To GIbson, Porsche, and all the other people and businesses we used to be able to rely on, I can only say.....

We bought a Cayenne last year, my wife's initial idea. I had grown more and more indifferent to cars and wasn't convinced at first. We found a used model at a good price. It's easily the best car I've ever driven. But the first few weeks of ownership were a frustrating litany of small failures and problems - all solved now fortunately. Although we bought it from an independent dealership, I had to contact Porsche a couple of times, and the service was really good.

[stevus]

Okay, after guitars, climate change, politics and cars, now it is time to change the topic to bicycles (I have three, one vintage).

[kevmoga]

Wait, wait…….what about amps? Anyone tracked the prices of silverface Princeton reverbs over the last couple of years?

[RJVB]

Uh and the 2-carbon stuff (ethanol)?

That would fall under overconfidence; that's exactly what alcohol provokes.

[Doctor Jeff]

Okay, after guitars, climate change, politics and cars, now it is time to change the topic to bicycles (I have three, one vintage).

I have a Trek Domane road bike and Trek Crossrip+ cyclocross E-bike. Both great bikes.





In my observation bike prices have stayed pretty level over the last 40 years, and technical advances have crept into the lower models like light aluminum frames and disk brakes.

I bought a Takara road bike in the early 80’s for ~$800–coincidentally what I paid for an ES-175 at the time. $800 will buy you a very decent bike, while $2400 ($800 in 80’s bucks) will buy a very good bike indeed.

Maybe it’s similar to guitars. $800 will buy a fine giggable guitar, while $2400 will buy a great guitar. Just not a Gibson archtop.

[Doctor Jeff]

Wait, wait…….what about amps? Anyone tracked the prices of silverface Princeton reverbs over the last couple of years?

I think another interesting topic would be what could you have gotten for a song back in the day but now have to spend big $$$?

Old tube amps, Gibson LPs, telecasters, 60’s Mustangs and Camaros (easily available for a couple grand in the 70’s), 70’s stereo equipment like Marantz, vinyl records, 60’s furniture (though there are still some bargains out there as people clean out their parents’ houses), vintage fountain pens and watches, 60’s comic books, the list goes on and on.

One generation’s disposable items are another generation’s valued collectibles.

Oh and GI Joes. If I had the stuff I had as a kid (preferably with the box), I could probably retire now. Sadly, they were lost in a house fire while I was away at college.

[AllanAllen]

Asking “What will make the most money” is the wrong way to innovate. You can’t make a better world with greed.

[Marinero]

"Well, fine. You wouldn’t have a tech industry is it wasn’t for government investment and public sector research. That’s a fact, just look into the history of the internet to pick one example." ChristianMiller

Hi, C,
This is, of course, a red herring since we would then have to discard/ignore all scientific achievements made by Man prior to modern governments that were made by independent scientists, astronomers, inventors, and mathematicians. And, how much research money is doled out to sympathizers of a political party in power in lieu of others researchers as payback for their support? The Research Science Game is dirty--especially here in the US.
Marinero

[SierraTango]

Okay, after guitars, climate change, politics and cars, now it is time to change the topic to bicycles (I have three, one vintage).

Yup, this thread really went sideways. So now, let's just summarize and agree-prices have gone up due to many factors. And as far as two wheels go, I have no interest in pedal bikes, I like my two wheels Italian style with Desmo valves. Come to think of it-why don't more people ride motorcycles? Guess it's all the stuff needing carried to gig.

[Doctor Jeff]

Yup, this thread really went sideways. So now, let's just summarize and agree-prices have gone up due to many factors. And as far as two wheels go, I have no interest in pedal bikes, I like my two wheels Italian style with Desmo valves. Come to think of it-why don't more people ride motorcycles? Guess it's all the stuff needing carried to gig.

Why are Harleys so expensive??

For the same reason Gibson archtops are so expensive...

(I know nothing about Ducatis. A quick look at prices suggests there are some that are not vintage D'Angelico $$$, but I couldn't tell you if those are reasonable or not.)

[SierraTango]

Why are Harleys so expensive??

For the same reason Gibson archtops are so expensive...

(I know nothing about Ducatis. A quick look at prices suggests there are some that are not vintage D'Angelico $$$, but I couldn't tell you if those are reasonable or not.)

Like most everything, there is a Ducati tribe. The holy grail in Ducati land is the green framed 750 SS from around 1974. This one sold for $175,000 in 2020. Modern Ducati's are pretty much predictable in pricing, within the last few years they have brought out the V4 engine to stay competitive. BTW, Ducati is now owned by Audi. They are doing extremely well in MotoGP this year.

[Stringswinger]

Did someone mention Harleys? Like Gibson guitars, Harleys are indeed the best. Here is a picture of me with my current two wheel favorite, a 2016 Harley-Davidson Heritage Softail Classic (I also have a 1983 Harley-Davidson FLH that I bought new and a 1993 Trek 930 Mountain bike which I also bought new. I am good with both gasoline powered and human powered two wheelers).

[RJVB]

Come to think of it-why don't more people ride motorcycles? Guess it's all the stuff needing carried to gig.

Because they see all the parts and fluids left behind by HD and Ducati owners and they can't conceive joining the Beemer crowd with their hanging jugs?

I sold my Norge 1200GT because I got tired of ATTGAT (and not just because of climate warming), plus a nice case of lower-back arthrosis I got as my 50th BD present. Not having to pay 2 insurance policies was a nice bonus (though at the time my MC policy was almost half of the one for my car, at the same company and with the same number of bonus points).

[SierraTango]

Did someone mention Harleys? Like Gibson guitars, Harleys are indeed the best. Here is a picture of me with my current two wheel favorite, a 2016 Harley-Davidson Heritage Softail Classic (I also have a 1983 Harley-Davidson FLH that I bought new and a 1993 Trek 930 Mountain bike which I also bought new. I am good with both gasoline powered and human powered two wheelers).

SS,
I'm pretty sure a educated gentleman like you would have to agree there are many different yardsticks for "The Best". If we are talking racing on a world competitive platform, Ducati has won the World Constructors championship for the last two consecutive years, along with multiple World Superbike championship titles over the years. Harley....yeah flat track and now the Bagger series. Ho Hum.

On a personal note, yes I would agree if I was pointing two wheels from CA to Sturgis to enjoy the festivities, a beautiful Harley such as yours would be the first call. However, to get a knee down in my local Sierra twisties, my two Italians do so superbly at exciting velocity without scraping floorboards.

Long distance two-up is handled very well by the BMW K1200 GT that shares garage space with the Ducatis. Seen here near Los Olivos,CA on Foxen Canyon Rd.

Cheers and happy gigging and riding!

[Doctor Jeff]

SS,
I'm pretty sure a educated gentleman like you would have to agree there are many different yardsticks for "The Best". If we are talking racing on a world competitive platform, Ducati has won the World Constructors championship for the last two consecutive years, along with multiple World Superbike championship titles over the years. Harley....yeah flat track and now the Bagger series. Ho Hum.

On a personal note, yes I would agree if I was pointing two wheels from CA to Sturgis to enjoy the festivities, a beautiful Harley such as yours would be the first call. However, to get a knee down in my local Sierra twisties, my two Italians do so superbly at exciting velocity without scraping floorboards.

Long distance two-up is handled very well by the BMW K1200 GT that shares garage space with the Ducatis. Seen here near Los Olivos,CA on Foxen Canyon Rd.

Cheers and happy gigging and riding!

For some reason this is not how I expected you to look.

[m_d]

Isn't the best business model the one where you keep riding your wave until you run into the ground (or wall), and then start up something new that will ride the next wave?

There are a few hydrogen-powered car models already. Or rather, EVs that get their energy from fuel cells rather than batteries (using H as fuel in an ICE is not impossible but also not really an option). Yes, use of fuel cells would indeed be a greener solution, provided we can produce the H required using renewable energies and distribute it globally in a safe way using ditto energies. It's certainly not demand from the market that is going to drive that development; the existing fuel cell cars cost about the price of a Monteleone.

Are these the same tech as the Honda Clarity, which Honda had been testing at scale in an area of California since 2006? A project which was stopped in 2008 with the Obama administration.

[Christian Miller]

I appreciate the thought and effort you put in to your posts on this topic. I may not agree with it all but I do take away what I can.

Hey, thanks for taking the time to read it. If it provides any food for thought I’m very happy.

[m_d]

" I say trust the science, but more importantly, trust your government to put the science to good use. You'll be in good hands!" m-d

Hi, m-d,
And the world's government's pernicious dictates on Covid are a great example, right?
Marinero

Depends which government? Not all countries were suicidal. There's a nuance between pernicious - tolerable, for a time, given the circumstances - and tyrannical.

[m_d]

It appears your chart does not include the cost of batteries and controls to make wind and solar viable. So the chart is a bit deceptive. Guessing the source was someone promoting green energy.

Also.. the $400B the US is spending won't generate the lithium we're not going to have for those batteries. It's mostly money to move off of fossil fuels to 'green' sources that already exist using current technology. Might actually raise the price as it generates artificial demand and stifles the need for real R&D.

It won't change anything and it won't make solar/wind cheap enough for China, India, and Africa where they will continue to burn what they have and what they can get.

Also, to generate equivalent power from those wind turbine monstrosities and solar panels implies an absolute devastation of natural landscapes. The greens seem unfazed by this, which says a lot. At times it seems the environment is more of an abstraction than a real thing for these people (most of whom live in cities). They also are devoid of practicality, insisting on technologies that are not ready for large-scale deployment and may have limited scope for improvement.