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probably not so much if you let your right hand do the heavy work and the left only flutters over the fretboard playing lots of single notes ... but where's the interest in that
Originally Posted by One_Note
I was working on a swing piece before the holidays which must have partial bar chords over 3 or 4 of the upper strings throughout and my (classical guitar) teacher made the very atypical-for-her suggesting to pick up the pace in order to put less strain on my fingers...
Of course that's not so much muscle strain as strain on joints, tendons and carpal tunnels. Pure muscle strain is rarely bad for us.
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08-21-2022 12:42 PM
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It’s what you’re used to, whatever you’ve become comfortable with.
I usually use 11’s but my current favorite guitar has 12’s (although tuned down). I can’t control light strings, I’m a worse player with them.
I’m fairly athletic and some people think that gives me additional strength. I think it’s irrelevant. OTOH I’ve been playing piano >50 years and I do suspect that could factor in.
But then again, maybe not. I originally started on acoustic guitar with typical acoustic strings, so that’s always been my comfort zone.
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Most of this is old news ....
Forearm fatigue may be due to a number of factors ... string size and tension being a major contributor.
Others may include ...
Inappropriate tension and lack of economy of effort .... on new songs and riffs we are
unfamiliar with ... we tend to grip more forcefully and for lack of a better word ... longer than necessary. Relaxation
is key to enduring and enjoying long sessions ... and building speed and finesse in playing only occurs when you
are able to find that point of relaxation. Body builders and football linemen have huge strength ... but usually lack
speed and very few could finish a marathon.
Grip in the hand can be facilitated by using the upper arm and shoulder to "pull" the hand towards the fretboard when
barring chords ... probably adds a good 30 percent to the force which allows a bit of relief for the small muscles of the forearm
and fingers. This however needs to play off against the need for relaxation and movement ... really a skill to be acquired in timing.
Another factor which as guitarists we have a bit of control over is neck shape .... for each of us there may be an ideal position
for the thumb with respect to the fingers that affords the least amount of effort for fretting the strings .... which may explain
why some of us prefer fatter necks and others thinner necks ... or why the D versus C or mod V works best.
Guitar size and shape can affect how our upper arm/shoulder and elbow flows when playing .... Had a L5 that I adored ... but
realized I need to grow another 4 inches in overall height to feel comfortable with the reach around it.
A couple of great suggestions from my previous Cello instructor ... a world class player and wonderful teacher:
Grip exercisers may not be the best form of strengthening exercise as you assume a distinctly rigid and non anatomic form ... from a
player's perspective with reference to fretting ... fingers are usually separated and the angle of force is different. His recommendation
was to work with a correctly sized nerf or rubber ball for the size of the players hand ... gripping the ball as you would the fretboard.
They come in different densities so you can work up to greater tension over time.
His take was that active relaxation exercise was almost more important than tension ... a different set of hand and finger muscles accomplish
the opening of the hand and release of tension and these need to be trained. Try gripping the hand for a few seconds and then attempt to
open it as quickly as you can when you were not gripping.
Key may be to find the instrument that accommodates your best position, speed and physical build and limitations ... forcing through the pain is
bound to bring attendant injury and restriction to your playing.
Sorry for the run-on ...Last edited by docmoore; 08-29-2022 at 06:00 PM.
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My last violin teacher (a master in the art of performance and teaching) was very strict about using force in the shoulder and upper arm. I think this advice carries over to guitar: those are not the body parts which we can control with a lot of finesse. Usually their main job is to keep the fretting hand in the air. Rather than using them to pull the hand against the fretboard you can just relax the muscles that keep the arm up, and use the weight of the arm to provide the pressure needed for the barré chord. Relaxation to provide pressure, that sounds more ergonomical than using force, doesn't it? Originally Posted by docmoore
Almost all our muscles works in antagonistic pairs (sphincter muscles are an exception), so we indeed have different sets of muscles for opening and for closing the fingers of the hand. However, muscles don't need other muscles to relax and release tension (under normal circumstances).His take was that active relaxation exercise was almost more important than tension ... a different set of hand and finger muscles accomplish
the opening of the hand and release of tension and these need to be trained.
Nevertheless, training the muscles that lift the fingers is indeed a good exercise. Trill exercises are good for that.
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Agree that relaxation always trumps force ... however most violin places the arm such that gravity allows a force multiplier ... down rather than a
perpendicular force to gravity with the guitar face forward ... not discounting SRV playing the guitar over his head and behind his back. With the guitar
the relaxation would be across the strings rather than towards the back of the neck.
Again it is not an easy movement but at times will trump limited hand strength.
Release of tension is a passive movement ... slow and a bit limiting ... my comment was that to have a fast maximal effort to release and move ...
the entensors need to be trained.
Interesting that violin cello and guitar have different relations to ground ... one parallel one vertical and one perpendicular ... which constrains those of us
with somewhat normal anatomy ...
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‘He also knew how to distinguish clearly between power and force, which constituted one of the main ideas of his struggle. He knew quite well that, in music, force is not power, something which many of the world’s political leaders do not perceive. The difference between power and force is equivalent to the difference between volume and intensity in music. When one speaks with a musician and says to him, “You are not playing intensely enough,” his first reaction is to play louder. And it is exactly the opposite: the lower the volume, the greater the need for intensity, and the greater the volume, the greater the need for a calm force in the sound.’
Daniel Barenboim with reference to Edward Said
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True, but how many people play with the fretboard truly vertical rather than tilted so we can admire our fingering? Originally Posted by docmoore
I didn't invent the idea of using arm weight, I read about it years ago (and just the other day again on the classical Delcamp forum).
EDIT: evidently, to "release and move" fingers you're going to need the extensors - but I *think* it would take conscious effort (or a pathological state) to use the antagonists against each other (i.e. try to raise a finger while it's still pressing down actively).
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I had a go with arm weight for left hand fretting just now. It's a cool idea that hadn't occurred to me.
We often think from the fingers, but the wrist, elbow and even shoulder are all available for use.
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Classical guitarist ,Doug Niedt, is a master of perfect technique. If you want perfection, here are Doug's 5 video lessons on barre chords.
Marinero
How to Play a Bar Chord in Under 2 Minutes, Clip #1 of 5.
https://www.youtube.com › watch
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This is where I got the idea: The Secret: How to Play Bar Chords Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Turns out that Little Jennifer indeed pulled her arms, so it's probably thanks to the teachings of Enrico Gatti that I realised you can achieve the necessary force with arm weight rather than pure muscles.
To come back to the fact that very few people keep the fretboard vertical: even less keep the instrument under their left armpit. In non-classical position the left arm is usually held pretty far from the torso, probably more like a viola player would hold it than a violinist. So think of having weights hanging off your elbows (of your upper arms as weights) and then hang this "mobile" off the fretboard anchored with your fingers; that should provide most if not all the pressure needed for a simple bar chords. I don't do multi-finger barrés so I can't comment on those
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Jazz Guitarists these days prefer using Lighter Gauge Strings to eliminate Forearm Fatigue plus they offer more overtones. For my Acoustic Archtop Guitar I shaved off the braces to get more volume out of the Lighter Gauge strings.
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I play vintage Epiphones, with no pickups, and use either medium gauge bronze(13-56), or a Martin set called 'light-medium', (12.5-55). I do think that vintage acoustic archtops benefit from these 'heavier' gauges, as they were built intended for use with them(and usually used as rhythm instruments). With a good setup(frets in GC, relief at a minimum) the action can be set quite low(4/64" & 5/64"). I do bend strings with no problems(but I am used to these gauges). Originally Posted by One_Note
Selmer-style guitars use a long, 670mm scale, and combined with the light gauge, low tension Savarez copper wound strings intended for use on them, and their ladder-braced tops, achieve a distinctive feel, tone, and playability unlike any carved top American style archtop. Django Reinhardt would often, with great effect, do significant string bends: I wondered how he did that, until I bought my own GJ guitar, and immediately understood. While I still lean toward my old Epiphones, I've come to feel that a good GJ guitar has superior volume and projection, and very good tone, for acoustic jazz guitar.
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when I started playing in the early '60s my neighbors dad used to play with his friends Bucky P, George B Johnny S and others. occasionally his dad would let me pick up the D'ang or the Gibson and later my friends and i would laugh because we could barely play open chords due to what we termed "they play cables 1/2" off the neck!" Ill never forget the sounds of those guys in his living room and to this day although I play 14-56 (fairly low action) they feel lite compared to how those geezers had theirs set up.
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The way the guitar is going to be used affects the strings to be used. Playing acoustically in a big band requires different strings and different action than playing amplified with a light touch. IME, heavier strings allow lower action when amplified, because there is less excursion when the heavier string is plucked. I would be interested to know how one shaves the braces inside an archtop without removing the entire back.
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This topic is a common misconception among beginners and a majority of players that never developed passed the beginner stage.
The beginner doesn't know what a good guitar is supposed to feel like. He also thinks that tone and feel are separate entities.
The beginner doesn't have a reference setup for comparison, but even if he had, he wouldn't be able to assess a guitar until his playing skills develop.
This is why the teacher must assess the guitar of the student and this is why people that live their lives in an on-line virtual reality lack real world references.
Example; Dude buys a guitar on-line because he wants to learn to play. Guitar looks awesome, but fingers hurt. He posts a NGD on some guitar forum and ask for setup advice and get recommendations from other beginners.
Dude must break this feedback loop or he'll remain a beginner even if he'd been a guitar owner for 30 years.
A good teacher would tell him;
It's not primarily about string gauge, but other setup parameters, some of which are user adjustable and some that are not...
You also have to decide if you are going to pluck with your fingers or if to use a pick. And you must ask yourself; -Is the guitar supposed to be used amplified or for acoustic purpose and how loud?
Dude says: -How am I supposed to know? You tell me.
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Acoustic guitars are very different compared to electric guitars. Most Jazz guitars are electric, some are acoustic and some are a bit of both worlds.
If your target is the loudest possible acoustic volume (e.g when playing an acoustic guitar in a swing band), it also means fingers are going to hurt and technique will suffer. But for 70 years already guitar players have solved the volume problem by plugging into an amplifier and there's no reason for fingers to hurt.
Many beginners play their solidbody electrics unplugged, trying to get as loud acoustic volume as possible. Please understand that this is totally irrelevant and is not going to help you improve.
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Being pain-free up until today doesn’t mean anyone will be pain-free tomorrow. I’ve played pain-free for 40 years. One day, the area where the LH thumb joins the hand and then down into the wrist started to be painful when fretting barre chords. I’ve traced it down to tendons in the wrist and to the thumb joint. Muscles don’t cause it. Anyway, it sucks. I deal with it with a combination of factors.
First, conscious relaxation of the hand and wrist, an almost meditative mental approach. Not just before I start playing but also, crucially, just before I fall asleep.
Second, by realising that my hand unconsciously uses more force than necessary to fret certain chords, especially with heavier string gauges. The hand seems to have a mind of its own and I mentally “overrule” this impulse.
Third, to rotate guitars. I find that any specific guitar will tax certain tendons, joints and muscles more and relax others, depending on neck shape, scale length, body shape, etc. Rotating guitars means rotating this stew of taxing and relaxing and I can feel it when I change guitars after an hour.
Fourth, to use different string gauges on different guitars: 10s on electrics and semis, 11s on the ‘37 Gibson L7 and 12s on the Eastman 580CE archtop, which has a super-comfortable neck. The Collings CL Jazz usually has 12s and due to its 25.5” scale length and lots of added string length behind the nut and the bridge this is the hardest guitar to play, even with very, very low action. I can play it comfortably only because of the three points mentioned above. The sound of that Collings with 12s is so special that I’m not going down to 11s.
All my guitars have a straight neck with hardly any relief, low action and properly cut nut slots.
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