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I also have a 2017 175. My understanding is that these have the thickest laminates ever used on the 175 to reduce feedback and improve sustain.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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08-17-2022 11:35 AM
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The Kluson Sealfasts appear to be heavier than any other tuners i know of. They could even be heavier than the Grovers in spite of the plastic buttons. I have a set coming, will be able to weigh and compare the plastic and metal Sealfasts. Unfortunately i do not have any "spare" Grovers which i could weigh individually. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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The lightest button is no button at all. So the easiest way to do this is to simply remove the buttons and see if there's a difference that you can measure and / or that others can hear consistently without knowing which is which. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
tune
play / record
loosen the retaining screws
retune
remove screws and buttons
play / record again
listen for differences
You can measure sustain by recording single notes and chords and comparing decay times. You can control your picking force well enough to get within 2 or 3 db on peaks. Do it enough times to find notes with attack peaks within a dB of each other, record it all in Audacity and compare sustain by measuring decay time to a given dB level and rate of dropoff on recorded waveforms. I'd do it myself but I don't have any guitars with heavy metal buttons. My Sperzel buttons are metal, but they're as light as plastic ones. And my archtops have wood or plastic tuner buttons.
Of course, we could also do this with existing tuners and with weight added to the headstock. If I have a few spare minutes, I'll try it with a heavy piece of metal wrapped in a cloth and held to the headstock with rubber bands. I suspect this is an idle exercise, but science is science and bias is to be avoided. My mind is as open as an A9b11/E
[I don't remember correct notation for an inside inversion; so for those who will pick nits at my feeble attempt at humor, I meant an open strum - EADGBE.]
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post #7 has a clip of someone doing something like that, resulting in no detectable difference with or without the extra weigh added to the headstock. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Of course, we could also do this with existing tuners and with weight added to the headstock. If I have a few spare minutes, I'll try it with a heavy piece of metal wrapped in a cloth and held to the headstock with rubber bands. I suspect this is an idle exercise, but science is science and bias is to be avoided. My mind is as open as an A9b11/E [I don't remember correct notation for an inside inversion; so for those who will pick nits at my feeble attempt at humor, I meant an open strum - EADGBE.]
PS: i'd call it A9sus/E or even more logical Em11 ;-)
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When the buttons are removed, the guitar will go out of tune. The screw holding the button also holds the worm gear in place. Without the button, there is no way to retune. It's still possible to play it, but it won't be in tune. It does allow one to feel the balance and hear the sound, however.
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It doesn't matter whether the string is tuned to pitch, if all you want to do is compare sustain. An E1 tuned to B is the same as a B tuned to B for purposes of this comparison. So for tuners that will still hold reasonable tension (which is true of the Sperzels I use on my electrics), the process is the same. I've only tried this with Sperzels because I changed the buttons on a few guitars over the years and didn't bother to detune first. I've never tried it with other types. Originally Posted by sgosnell
The function of a worm gearset is to prevent torque on the main shaft from rotating it. The screw in the end of the tuning shaft does increase the pressure between mating surfaces of the worm and spur gears. But the force exerted on the worm by trying to turn the post directly is perpendicular to to the thread of the worm. As the mating surfaces are almost pependicular to each other, there's only a tiny vector directed tangentially to the worm. So there's vry little force available to rotate the worm.
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I've changed buttons numerous times, on different guitars. It's not like they detune by a massive amount, but it doesn't take much movement to get out of tune. And when the buttons are replaced, the tension is never quite right. It doesn't affect comparative tone, as I said, but the tuning is affected. The only way to get the tension on the internal gears right is to adjust the screws holding the buttons while all the string tension is removed. It's not all that evident, but it's there, and the worm gear isn't in exactly the right place, it will be displaced outward to some extent, and that affects tuning stability. It doesn't hurt to remove the buttons under tension, but one should know the effects and be prepared to do what is necessary to get everything back in balance.
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I'm going to file this under the thread "do we nitpick about gear too much?"!
All I know is, I have Imperials on my Campellone, and the notes ring for about 12 minutes. Done.
Sealfasts might be heavier, but I have a feeling this all falls under the "too minute to make a difference" category.
At least, I'm not going there!
All of my guitars sustain very well. It hey didn't, they'd be gone. I have everything from featherweight vintage Klusons on my old Fenders, vintage Sealfasts on my '50's D28, to the Imperials. A good guitar is a good guitar- IMHO. YMMV. Etc.
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So I’m guessing that you’re not going to order one of my custom weighted tuner sets, huh? The shafts and buttons are available in titanium, lead, barium, and gold (18 and 24 k). Each metal has a different density, and you can mix & match to add sustain in 10 second increments. The heaviest set of buttons and shafts adds 3 minutes to a 5 pound guitar, dropping by 30 seconds per additional pound to a minimum of 1 1/2 minutes on an 11 pound instrument. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Each metal has a different tone spectrum, too. Barium is the thunkiest, gold is the warmest, and titanium is the woodiest. A set of 6 is $1200 and matching tailpieces to counterbalance neck dive are $750. I call them ToneTuners
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Speaking of tuners...
I used a stethoscope to determine (other than the strings) what parts of my Stratocaster (35 year old 10 lbs solid body) produced sound acoustically, which implies where the vibration energy is loading. I figured I would hear the most coming from places like the saddles, the bridge plate, and the bridge block, the five springs, the back of the neck... I was very wrong. I listened to every part of the guitar and heard nothing except from a few places, where it was rather loud:
- the end of the vibrato bar (pretty loud)
- the head stock all over (pretty loud)
- the tuners all over (shockingly loud)
- the tuning key buttons themselves (the loudest part of the guitar)
These locations are all "terminal extensions"; maybe the vibration kind of accumulates since it runs out of places to go, except to the air?
Sperzel locking tuners, nickle, big and heavy.
Not the same as a jazz box, but I would not generally discount any effect of tuners. I would never have guessed.
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It seems that it's getting increasingly popular to nitpick about nitpicking ....... Originally Posted by bluejaybill
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for anyone interested, the new sealfasts with plastic buttons weigh 39 grams each, the originals from the mid seventies with golden coloured metal buttons 52 grams each. So the headstock gets 78 grams lighter by changing to the plastic buttons.
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And from the “strange but true” archives comes this gem I just discovered while searching for something on which to spend my $22 in MF points about to expire: meet the Fender Fatfinger Sustain Enhancer……
Per the intensive research from which this emerged comes this summary of benefits:
“The Fatfinger™ adds mass to the weak end of the instrument, so strings ring out longer, louder, and with more balance. Dead spots can be tuned out simply by changing the point of contact to the headstock.”
And interestingly enough, it’s $22.99 at MF but $19.99 direct from Fender !!
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Those have been available for years. I don't know if they do anything, because I've never been tempted, nor seen the need, to try them. I don't own a Fender guitar. Post #7 links a video about them.
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Hmmmm - my bet is that they’re equally effective on any guitar Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Barium tuner buttons seems awfully impractical, given that it needs protective atmosphere not to react with air and what have you not Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
So I’m guessing that you’re not going to order one of my custom weighted tuner sets, huh? The shafts and buttons are available in titanium, lead, barium, and gold (18 and 24 k). Each metal has a different density, and you can mix & match to add sustain in 10 second increments. The heaviest set of buttons and shafts adds 3 minutes to a 5 pound guitar, dropping by 30 seconds per additional pound to a minimum of 1 1/2 minutes on an 11 pound instrument.
Each metal has a different tone spectrum, too. Barium is the thunkiest, gold is the warmest, and titanium is the woodiest. A set of 6 is $1200 and matching tailpieces to counterbalance neck dive are $750. I call them ToneTuners
You could put them where the sun dont shine for a rectal x ray though, but that is probably OT
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Lead seems pretty soft, and gold buttons are only gold plated. Gold is also soft. Not to mention prohibitively expensive. Six buttons of pure gold will weigh near 6 ounces. Lead is cheap enough, but poisonous. I think the common button materials are good enough.
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