Jazz on a Gibson Les Paul?

[RayS]

One can play jazz on Any guitar...few greats played on anything other than an archtop à la D,angelico or es 175 l5 400 etc..and those that do/did are /were the very best....Pat Martino , Lenny Brault , Jim Hall (not often and not long) Ted Bickert (a tele ) even Joe Pass at one time (and a whole bunch of "fusion" players). There is also a new generation of players that are desperately trying to steer away from the old cliché "hollow body jazz guitar" nothing wrong there...and, even though I use a solid body myself for all sorts of reasons, I long for the perfect sound only to be found on a vintage Gibson or D'angelico /D'aquisto Heritage or the likes......Although Tim Lerch made it even more difficult to choose.:

Ray

[sgosnell]

I haven't heard anything out of Mitch Watkins in a long time. He's never been a household name, but he can play. I have a CD of mandolinist Paul Glasse with him on it. Glad to see he's still active.

[Steve Z]

Always enjoy this video... Jack Pearson...

[Cunamara]

When Tal Farlow saw Jim Hall using a Les Paul, he insisted that Hall go out and get a hollow body guitar. Then he helped Hall get established in the jazz field.

According to interviews with him, Jim Hall had owned an L5 which he thought sounded "tubby" and sold it, buying the Les Paul to try to cure that. He didn't like the Les Paul because he couldn't feel it vibrate when he played it. This was when he was playing with Chico Hamilton. He traded the Les Paul to Howard Roberts for Roberts's ES-175, which had appeared on several of Howard's album covers; Jim used it for about 20 years on many of his classic albums including the "Live" album, despite his D'Aquisto being on the cover. He was transitioning to the D'Aquisto at that time and I think it may be on a few tracks on the Jim Hall live volumes 2–4 CDs. There's a few songs where his tone is quite a bit different, more like the albums that came after the mid 70s. I have to admit, I preferred his ES-175 tone, especially with the P90 pickup.

I think that one reason that the Les Paul was not more utilized in jazz is that it had another famous jazz guitarist's name on it. ES-175, ES-350, L-5, etc., are neutral names. The manufacturers name is also neutral. But a guitar named after another famous musician interferes with one's own personal branding, not that this was thought of in that light in those days. Personal branding as a term is a 21st-century thing, even though the idea has been around for many decades. The need for a good sounding instrument that would withstand the much higher volumes of the rock 'n' roll era, particularly moving into the 1960s, overcame that. Plus, they look darn cool. In particular, I am a sucker for a nice flamey maple sunburst Les Paul like Duane Allman's second one. But, the ergonomics of the instrument and I don't get along so I never bought one.

i'm surprised nobody has linked to this particular video, Don Mock playing in LP with a lovely sound:

[Alder Statesman]

I always considered Les Paul to be more of a MOR (middle of the road) pop type player rather than way into the jazz vein. That performance in the video is typical Les Paul and then listen to him with Mary Ford. Excellent player, no doubt, but more MOR than jazz.

Tony

I had convinced myself of that, too.

Then I saw Les live at Fat Tuesdays (and spoke to him afterwards). I was wrong.

[wintermoon]

According to interviews with him, Jim Hall had owned an L5 which he thought sounded "tubby" and sold it, buying the Les Paul to try to cure that. He didn't like the Les Paul because he couldn't feel it vibrate when he played it. This was when he was playing with Chico Hamilton. He traded the Les Paul to Howard Roberts for Roberts's ES-175, which had appeared on several of Howard's album covers; Jim used it for about 20 years on many of his classic albums including the "Live" album, despite his D'Aquisto being on the cover. He was transitioning to the D'Aquisto at that time and I think it may be on a few tracks on the Jim Hall live volumes 2–4 CDs. There's a few songs where his tone is quite a bit different, more like the albums that came after the mid 70s. I have to admit, I preferred his ES-175 tone, especially with the P90 pickup.

I think that one reason that the Les Paul was not more utilized in jazz is that it had another famous jazz guitarist's name on it. ES-175, ES-350, L-5, etc., are neutral names. The manufacturers name is also neutral. But a guitar named after another famous musician interferes with one's own personal branding, not that this was thought of in that light in those days. Personal branding as a term is a 21st-century thing, even though the idea has been around for many decades. The need for a good sounding instrument that would withstand the much higher volumes of the rock 'n' roll era, particularly moving into the 1960s, overcame that. Plus, they look darn cool. In particular, I am a sucker for a nice flamey maple sunburst Les Paul like Duane Allman's second one. But, the ergonomics of the instrument and I don't get along so I never bought one.

i'm surprised nobody has linked to this particular video, Don Mock playing in LP with a lovely sound:

I'd have had to have seen it to link it very nice
I mentioned the tubby L5 last page though I think I only recently saw a pic of him w it.
I wonder if he's going through those Eons?

[Leif_Olstrup]

I realize that in the classical guitar world, Segovia established a strong tradition so that serious players had to be seen with a particular type and make (Ramirez) of classical guitar.......

Tony

.... yet, Segovia played a Hauser from 1938 to 1962.



Sendt fra min SM-T810 med Tapatalk

[tbeltrans]

.... yet, Segovia played a Hauser from 1938 to 1962.



Sendt fra min SM-T810 med Tapatalk

Andres Segovia’s incredibly rare 1914 Ramirez guitar is going up for auction | Guitar.com | All Things Guitar

https://classicalguitarmagazine.com/...s-beautifully/

Segovia played Hauser and Ramirez guitars, but it does seem that proteges of Segovia seem to generally gravitate to the Ramirez.

Tony

[citizenk74]

.... yet, Segovia played a Hauser from 1938 to 1962.



Sendt fra min SM-T810 med Tapatalk

[Alter]

For jazz and blues (so playing with a clean or cleanish tone), i would also consider the Gibson SG as an alternative to the Les Paul. It lacks the maple top, but the compression the top provides is mostly relevant when playing with distortion. It's also lighter and cheaper. An SG with P-90s for example, is logically priced, and a valid candidate for solid body jazz tone.

[Cunamara]

The SG might scare jazzers away, but they have a wonderful sound.

[Cunamara]

Andres Segovia’s incredibly rare 1914 Ramirez guitar is going up for auction | Guitar.com | All Things Guitar

Segovia’s Historic 1969 Ramirez Still Plays Beautifully | Classical Guitar

Segovia played Hauser and Ramirez guitars, but it does seem that proteges of Segovia seem to generally gravitate to the Ramirez.

Huh. In the Classical Guitar Magazine article, it mentions that the finish of the 1969 Ramirez is "catalyzed urethane." I did not expect that. French polish, varnish, nitrocellulose, etc., I would not have batted an eye. But given the amount of griping electric guitarists make about urethane finishes as killers of tone, that one of the premier classical guitar luthiers in the world used it caught me off guard. Perhaps urethane finishes aren't as bad as we make them out to be?

[Alder Statesman]

Andres Segovia’s incredibly rare 1914 Ramirez guitar is going up for auction | Guitar.com | All Things Guitar

Segovia’s Historic 1969 Ramirez Still Plays Beautifully | Classical Guitar

Segovia played Hauser and Ramirez guitars, but it does seem that proteges of Segovia seem to generally gravitate to the Ramirez.

Tony

We are straying from a discussion of a popular solid body for jazz, but as I recall the classical gossip during the above mentioned era was that despite his Ramirez “agreement” Segovia was playing a Fleta in concerts. The rumor was so persistent Jose Ramirez III refuted it in his book The Fine Guitar.


Now, back to Les Pauls.

[tbeltrans]

We are straying from a discussion of a popular solid body for jazz, but as I recall the classical gossip during the above mentioned era was that despite his Ramirez “agreement” Segovia was playing a Fleta in concerts. The rumor was so persistent Jose Ramirez III refuted it in his book The Fine Guitar.


Now, back to Les Pauls.

I started this thread and got helpful information from many in this thread. You went after my post that mentioned Segovia's proteges in passing, and took it completely out of context. I never said that Segovia only played Ramirez guitars. Instead I said that his proteges seem to. My point was only that I wondered if there was a similar tradition regarding archtop guitars that might have contributed to the Les Paul model not being seen as often among jazz players. Somehow, you completely missed that, misunderstood me to say Segovia only played Ramirez guitars, and then spent much time in this thread going after that assumption. You could have contributed more to the subject of the thread, but for some odd reason, chose not to.

My thanks to those who posted here, contributing to the discussion about the use of the Les Paul model by jazz musicians. That was useful information for me.


Tony

[Alder Statesman]

I started this thread and got helpful information from many in this thread. You went after my post that mentioned Segovia's proteges in passing, and took it completely out of context. I never said that Segovia only played Ramirez guitars. Instead I said that his proteges seem to. My point was only that I wondered if there was a similar tradition regarding archtop guitars that might have contributed to the Les Paul model not being seen as often among jazz players. Somehow, you completely missed that, misunderstood me to say Segovia only played Ramirez guitars, and then spent much time in this thread going after that assumption. You could have contributed more to the subject of the thread, but for some odd reason, chose not to.

My thanks to those who posted here, contributing to the discussion about the use of the Les Paul model by jazz musicians. That was useful information for me.


Tony

My apologies. It won’t happen again.

[guavajelly]

I have les Paul Tribute which is chambered and IMHO it can produce a nice Jazz Tone. If I remember correctly Abercrombie often used es Pauls or similar guitars, there's a video with a young George Benson using one also. It definitely can get a (traditional or modern) Jazz tone.
OTOH to me the body of a Les Paul feels a bit small compared to e.g. an ES-335 – especially when playing seated I feel like a little more guitar is more comfortable.

[tbeltrans]

I have les Paul Tribute which is chambered and IMHO it can produce a nice Jazz Tone. If I remember correctly Abercrombie often used es Pauls or similar guitars, there's a video with a young George Benson using one also. It definitely can get a (traditional or modern) Jazz tone.
OTOH to me the body of a Les Paul feels a bit small compared to e.g. an ES-335 – especially when playing seated I feel like a little more guitar is more comfortable.

Thanks. I prefer small body guitars. Even with acoustic guitars, I like the 00 size and a short scale. Regardless of the guitar, I always use a strap so that whether sitting or standing, the guitar is always in the same position. That position for me is like the classical guitar position with the neck at approximately a 45 degree angle. I rarely, if ever, play with a pick, so that neck angle works well for me for fingerstyle.

As previously mentioned, my Les Paul is a 2015 model with the wider (1.79") nut. Since I play fingerstyle, I prefer a wider string spacing. As I have played my Les Paul, I realize that the actual string spacing does not take advantage of the wide nut, so I contacted a well respected local repair shop that has done work for me in the past, to change the nut and slot it for a wider string spacing. They can also make minor modifications at the bridge to accomplish that end. When that is finished, I think my Les Paul will make a perfect electric guitar for fingerstyle.

As for the tone, I can definitely get warm tones from my Les Paul. It has the ability to split the pickups for single coil, but I prefer the warmer tones of the full humbuckers. The only thing I wish is that the guitar itself was a bit lighter, but then Les Pauls are known for their weight. As I understand it (I could be wrong about this), these 2015 models have 9 holes to lighten the load a bit.

Tony

[jim777]

I've wanted a red Les Paul Custom since I saw Clint Strong do stuff like this back in the 80s:

Sure seems like jazz to me:

I had never heard of Clint before but damn! That man can play!

[jim777]

The SG might scare jazzers away, but they have a wonderful sound.

Have to agree with the SG sounding great. I like Les Pauls, but they are kind of small and heavy, which makes them seem almost heavier. I really like my Seventy Seven Albatross, which is a Les Paul sized semi but she only weighs 6 pounds. I went back and forth for about 8 months with the two of them but just recently sold the Les Paul, which was a Tokai custom shop "light weight" model, but still almost 2 pounds heavier than the Albatross. But the Les Paul could definitely do jazz, to the point where I swapped the pickups on the two guitars to keep the LP's pickups in the 77. Here's the 77 and the LP side by side, they are very nearly identical in size and both often ended up in the wrong case :lol:

[6v6ster]

This thread got me thinking about how to make my Les Paul better for jazz. The one issue I always have is the neck pickup just has a lot of low mids compared to a hollow body neck pickup. I’m always fighting that.

well I think I found a great solution. I changed the neck volume pot from
500k to 1M and disconnected the tone control. And man, it’s much more balanced, actually sounds very much like my L5 neck pickup now.

anyway thought I’d share in case anyone else is having the same fight.

[geese_com]

I am so glad that this thread has introduced me to Clint Strong.

[wintermoon]

I am so glad that this thread has introduced me to Clint Strong.

Them's some chops!

[Cunamara]

Not only chops, Clint's done his homework too.

[mad dog]

I'm no Les Paul lover. They all seem so heavy, muddy, hard to balance on one's lap. Just found one that seems like the antidote to my LP distaste. A 2009 LP Studio faded. Mine looks like this one. Dark, satin finish all over. Chambered mahogany body, mahogany cap, mahogany neck. Burstbucker Pro p/us w/alnico V magnets:



It's light. Less than 6 1/2 pounds, crazy light for a Les Paul. And there's no mud. Sounds clear, warm, twangy even, in all positions. With real punch as volume goes up. The sound is so clear to start, it responds very well to tone knob roll off in the neck position - a hardly LP like attribute. I lack the jazz chops to demo the sounds, but suspect it would serve perfectly well for any flavor of jazz. I'd love to hear this body type with P90s, don't think any like that were made.

[Herbie]

I'd love to hear this body type with P90s, don't think any like that were made.

Congrats and welcome to the LP Club!

Oh yes there is P90 powered blank LPs, thousands of them! It is called Les Paul Special and they come as cheapos from 500 to Custom Shop models for 2500 units. I have one from middle class, but this photo is from the net: