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Hi there,
I am using 12-52 electric guitar strings on my 70’s archtop. I have tried different wound options but my issue is not about G to low E strings but high E and B strings.
They sound as if they don’t have enough tone thickness for my taste.
It’s nice that E, A, D, and sometimes G (if wound) has tone options from chrome to pure nickel, to half round, nickel round wound, to stainless steel but what about B and high E strings. They seem left out behind in technology and innovation path,
unless there are different material choices or coatings for tone that I’m not aware of.
I think there are still some tone differences for high E and B strings (may be slightly) between different manufacturers and models perhaps but all info I find in the web is about the wound shape and wound material, and no mention of how B string and high E string are treated.
I have tried Thomastic Infeld Pure Nickel flatwound and following that I tried half round D’addario with same string size and same guitar / amp / speaker for high E and B strings and felt as if Thomastic Infeld strings sounded more mellow.
I’m wondering if someone has knowledge in this area to share.
I'm trying to get the mellowest possible tone string choice for high E and B strings. I know there are brass coated high E and B strings by Thomastic Infeld. Does that coat make them mellower?
oh by the way, I don’t want to go to thicker string set if possible since already I have moved up to 12 and feel I’m kind of not quite ready for that higher tension yet.
Thank you.
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03-09-2022 02:41 PM
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Have you considered changing the saddles? Not sure what archtop you have but I put nylon saddles in a couple of strings in the past to try to achieve that and it worked.
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Hi Blille, I’m using an ebony bridge that doesn’t have any option for adding something on top. It’s just a one piece carved ebony, like the old style.
Originally Posted by blille
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I've wondered the same thing and for the same reason.
I find the high E string prone to sounding thin or a little fizzy high up on the neck.
I've tried different brands but I've never noticed any difference.
I think, without being certain, that changing the high E string often does help.
What I ended up doing to improve the sound is use a DV Mark Little Jazz (which doesn't seem to reproduce the fizz) and be careful about EQ. I also play constantly riding a volume pedal -- so I can make some of the thinner notes louder. That helps, sometimes.
Overall, it remains a problem. Not every guitar has it, but many do and I often hear it on recordings and in live performances.
When my 2009 or so D'A EXDC was new, it absolutely did not have this problem. But, as it aged, it developed the problem. I had it looked at by a couple of noted luthiers with no benefit. I assume it's subtlety of fretwork, apparently only on thin strings, but I'm guessing about that.
I don't have the problem on any other string, just E. I use plain 3rd. My usual set is 11 13 17 22 32 42. (Buy 9s, throw the 9 away and buy a 13 -- Amazon sells packs of 5 strings of the same gauge).
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I use Elixir brand E and B strings.
Compared to the normal thomastik plain strings, even though they're the same gauge, there is a slight tension increase and they are less prone to getting fizzy. They do seem to last quite a bit longer too.
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My solution to it is BB114 Thomastik roundwounds. I know you said no thicker gauge. Nothing else works for me. The wound strings are more like 012 set on these.
Other things that help a bit is having the neck relief adjusted to where it is almost straight line. This lowers the action below 7th fret and allows me to raise the bridge a bit. In the end there is less buzz playing 10-16 frets.
Pick choice is also important. Planet Waves Black Ice and Jazz III are my favourites, they have less click.
Then the pickup. Having the pickup too high can make the tone relatively brittle up the neck.
I'm getting a Faber ABR with nylon saddles any day now, wondering if it will soften the attack a bit more.
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Thank you for the replies. They definitely give me some options to look into.
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There really is no answer to thicker tone other than upping your string size. Tal Farlow, Kessel, Wes all on record as using 14 or 15’s for E. (Tal went with 15/20 E/B…. That’s where the ‘thunk’ secret is)))
Returning to playing after a long med layoff, I’ve downsized to 12s to give my hand a chance to strengthen. After being used to 14s I hated the sound of the 12s. 11s, no way! Talked to Stringsbymail they suggested the Optima Gold E and B and for a 12 it does have a rounder thicker sound. I was never impressed with the TI plain strings, nor D’Addario. Check them out, not that much more expensive and they seem to last (keep their tone) better than others.
YMMV but good luck!
jk
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What guitar is this?
Originally Posted by Arya44
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Lots of folks switch out the top plain strings on a set of 12's with 13 and 17.
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I too went in search of strings that were high but mellow. I returned with my hopes dashed. I do not believe they exist. I do not believe they can exist. Only the wound sound round. But thick picks help. D'Andrea make many, as do Dunlop.
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I tried 12s but I didn't hear much improvement over 11s and I didn't like how they felt.
My EXDC sounded fine with 11s when it was new.
I believe that some top pros have gotten great sound with lighter gauge than 12s. Jim Hall, Mike Stern and John Scofield reportedly used 11s. I believe Larry Carleton used 10s.
Of course, other great players used heavier strings.
I'm not convinced that the problem is always that the string gauge is too light.
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thank you. That’s very helpful. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
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Morris Lawsuit era copy of ES175 Originally Posted by skiboyny
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well looks like I should do the same and just get used to the tension. Originally Posted by ccroft
Thanks.
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That could be true. I’m gonna try 13 and 17 anyway even if they don’t make much difference just to see how they feel. Also I will buy Optima Gold that was mentioned earlier see if I can make it sound a bit thicker. Thanks everyone. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Good luck with it and please report back! Originally Posted by Arya44
That could be true. I’m gonna try 13 and 17 anyway even if they don’t make much difference just to see how they feel. Also I will buy Optima Gold that was mentioned earlier see if I can make it sound a bit thicker. Thanks everyone.
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While many people listen to the bass reproduction of a guitar as a measure of "good sound" I have always listened more carefully to the tone of the High E. I don't think you will solve your problem with a "brand" string change. High E and B are all steel strings with the same tonal quality. Guitars absolutely have personalities. Changing up in gauge to a heavier string, one that you will be opposed to tension wise, is not an acceptable trade IMO. I think if you intend on keeping your guitar you might be better served with some experimenting with pick gauges and your attack in general. Just my opinion of course good luck in your experimenting. Originally Posted by Arya44
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I get ticker tone rising the action a bit;
also polepieces might help…
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A thicker pick, different pick materials, different pick shapes, and slightly higher action can make a big difference. Pickup height also has an effect. I don't hear a big difference between .013 and .012 strings. A thousandth of an inch isn't much. Other factors have much more effect, IME.
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I've tried every combination of pickup height and polepiece height on several guitars. It doesn't solve the problem with the high E string. I've also tried new bridges, different breakover angle, changes in action (although I can't go too high) and putting tiny bits of rubber in the saddle slot. None of this worked.
If a physicist explained to me that there isn't enough metal vibrating over a wide enough distance, on the high E string above the 10th fret, to sound fuller, I wouldn't be surprised, except that there are guitars that don't seem to have the issue (the EXDC and, surprisingly, a Little Martin Ed Sheeran model, come to mind).
I've also had two very competent luthiers look at it on different guitars, to no avail.
I have the impression that some players (not so much jazz guys) get around it by processing the tone, usually with distortion. I did it with octave-lower added in. So, for example, even though Strats usually have this problem, you don't hear it on records very often - because of signal processing.
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i know it’s a faff but could you put the
same type of PU as the exdc into the
archtop ?
or and I believe this is true for me
put super heavy B and E plain strings on
Pat Martino used BIG strings
16 E or something
I use 13 or 14 top and it’s a thick tone
on my 16 lam top ibanez 24.75 scale archtop
i can bend the E ok
the B not so much (but nearly a tone)
i might go down a gauge on the B
as a compromise
one does sound a bit TBone Walker
bending those heavy strings tho !
TI jazz flats
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IME, the harder I pick on lighter strings the more it sounds like the string is "fretting out". The effect is less pronounced with heavier strings . I also find that this effect is exacerbated by worn frets and/or fingerboards with a "rising tongue", something that's especially common with bolt-on necks and archtops (for different mechanical reasons). I suspect that a 335-style guitar is less susceptible to the effect because the neck/body joint is at a higher fret (therefore fewer frets to affect by a rising tongue), at least while the frets are in good condition. Pick thickness probably matters, too, but I think there's probably a tradeoff. A thicker pick will focus the attack and give it a thicker tone, but it will run you into the "fretting out" effect than a thinner one. So I think the solution lies in some combination of matching string gauge and pick thickness to how hard you pick, modulating picking force, addressing fret conditions.
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The EXDC has a Kent Armstrong pickup. I vaguely recall hearing that it was not one of the pu's he sold individually. Originally Posted by pingu
That guitar sounds dark to me compared to other semis, but I could get a sound I liked. It is possible that whatever factor gave it the darkness also eliminated the high E problem. That is, you can roll off treble and eliminate the fizz, but at the expense of dulling the tone. So maybe it was the pu, or maybe something else about the construction.
It was my main guitar for several years and then it seemed to develop the high E problem (in my case above the 12th fret, more or less). So, I figured it was fretwork. But, nothing I (or the two luthiers) did restored the sound.
I had a new Strat with the problem which I took to Gary Brawer (writes for GP among other credits). His diagnosis: "it plays the way a Strat should play. Maybe it's not the guitar for you".
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Thanks everyone. I’m feeling lucky to see all the replies to this subject to gather valuable information here. I was tempted to buy a pickup with 6 outputs one time almost 15 years ago. I am an audio engineer and know which frequencies are great to keep or attenuate for each string but as mentioned earlier in this thread you cater the amp EQ to one string and then it sounds bad on another string. Guitar build is indeed important. I think full hollow body at least the one I’m using is susceptible to reveal wood resonance of low-mid frequencies much better than high frequencies coming from B and E strings. Plus the string mass is much smaller on high E string hence less physical vibration energy, so it’s barely vibrating the wood anyway. I think going heavier in gauge may be the only way. Not sure if the plating makes a difference though. It would be good to know. Either brass plated strings by Thomastic or gold plated ones by Optima. I also play saxophone and brass tends to increase overtones and make the sound livelier and gold makes the sound rounder and sweeter.
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