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02-04-2022, 04:12 PM #1Dutchbopper Guest
Last year I demoed acoustic Stromberg and d'Angelico archtops. They were both 35-40k guitars. Maybe you remember. However, a flat top does the trick too to a large degree AFAIAC. Not the same, but still ...
It's a 400 bucks guitar, so nothing special.
DB
Last edited by Dutchbopper; 02-04-2022 at 05:54 PM.
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02-04-2022 04:12 PM
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Very nice sound and great playing.
Those who try to play jazz on acoustic guitars should take you as a role model.
Exelent !
Best
Kris
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The flattop wasn’t as bad as I was expecting for jazz. But clearly shows why archtops need that mid punch to come through. All those complex chords sound a little mushy without it.
Thanks for posting that!
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Sounds good! I’ll have to dig out my old dreadnought acoustic and give it a go, I don’t think I’ve ever tried recording anything on it.
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Nice chops. The older I get, the more I believe (hear?) it’s the player not the instrument. The flat top voice is definitely not the same, but you sound like yourself in both videos.
Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
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Since Tony Rice passed away, I have been inspired to play jazz on my flattop a lot. Works fine for jazz!
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I’m a Mimi Fox fan. She switches between a Taylor flat top and a Heritage archtop.
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Interesting comparison and while the flattop sounds fine and in DB hands he can always make music. However the sound is not as focused or direct as in the archtop sound. The rhythm playing sounds again much more focused. Nothing wrong with the sound of the flattop and you save about $20,000 compared to D'angelico. I would assume the regular listening audience would not hear the difference to care, but my ears know.
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Back in the spring of 1970, I was hanging at the local music store where a few of my fellow sidemen worked, when the Martin rep came in. They introduced me to him, and he asked me if I'd consider using a Martin on our jazz and commercial gigs. I started to blow him off when he stopped me with "I have several really nice ones with me. Try them all now, pick the one you like most, and I'll give it to you for 30% off."
That got my attention, and I bought the one I liked most on the assumption that (as promised) I'd use it at the weddings we were playing that weekend and just enjoy it after that. It was an Indian RW D-28, and I just liked it more than the other D-28s and concert bodies he had with him. Looking back on it, I chose Indian RW over Brazilian RW - who knew?
They had a good DeArmond pickup for it, so I dutifully used it on 2 gigs. It was great for ballads, but the leader just didn't like the way it sounded. I reported my experience to the Martin guy and went back to my electrics with the band, and that was that. But I did use it on a lot of solo gigs in restaurants and other small rooms because it sounded so nice and was loud enough without an amp. When I went to 7 strings, I sold the Martin along with my other 6s and had no flat top for several years.
I now have a very nice flattop 7 with Fishman system that's great on solo jazz gigs or with bass and drums, playing through my Little Jazz or one of my Class D heads and small cabs. I also use it for some blues dates at the club, using the XLR balanced out on the Fishman through a DI into the house system. But you can't put flatwound strings on a flattop unless it's specically built for that (which I've only heard of but never seen) - so it's not quite a classic jazz tone, even with Stringjoy pure nickel round core RWs.
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Why can't you put flatwounds on a flattop? I wouldn't, but l don't use flatwounds on archtops either... as long as the gauge is appropriate, why not?
The Martin Retro monel strings are pretty jazzy on a flattop, BTW.
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JazzSwings sound sublime on a spruce / Hog or all Hog 00 in example, played fingerstyle.
it really depends on how bright the guitar is in the first place and what sound and feel you are aiming at.
Flatwounds for me please.
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I'm w the deacon on this, DB playing great as always but I'm an archtop snob when it comes to jazz (though Ed Bickert gets a nice sound from a Tele)
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Sounds great to me. I'm very into flat top acoustics right now.
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I’ve been told by several luthiers over several years that flatties put too much tension on the top for the pin bridge and bracing to sustain over time. I haven’t discussed it since the days when our tires were skinny and our strings were fat. So I suspect that a really light set of modern TI flats wouldn’t be a problem for a well made flattop. But they probably wouldn’t sound as good as bigger RWs. Originally Posted by Cunamara
From D’Addarios’s tension charts, an 0.042” Chrome puts about 35% more tension between tuner and tailpiece than an 0.042” RW nickel plated steel string. I haven’t looked it up, but a set of 10-46 Chromes probably applies about the same tension as a set of 12-54 RWs.
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A few years ago I attended a party at a friend's house.
The friend hired a duo. They came in with an electric bass, a flat top guitar, two mics, a small mixer and a medium size guitar amp (size like a Deluxe maybe). They played in an outside area surrounded by the house (atrium?). It all went into the mixer and out the guitar amp.
As it turned out, they had a full PA system in their van for a gig later that day. They didn't use it for this gig.
They played everything from bop to folk on those instruments and sang beautiful 2 part harmony. The guitar amp (don't recall the brand) sounded terrific for everything. No louder than needed for the space. They were perfect. I learned something about musicianship and gear.
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Two different sounds, 2 diff. tools. I like both and I would choose the one instrument that best fits the desired ambience. I've always loved that flattop sound in more "acoustic" jazz, seemed very popular in the 80'a and beyond. Many jazz recordings have been made with flattops.
Nice work DB.
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I like it a lot. I think you've used it very well, letting the note breath so the guitar has a chance to ring.
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02-06-2022, 09:26 AM #18Dutchbopper Guest
After more experimenting with EQ, compression and reverb, I just posted a new recording of my flat top in the recording & music software section. I am in a learning curve here. I think it already sounds better than the "Grooveyard" track in this thread.
Click here if you want to check it out. It's a piano-guitar duet. The tune is "I Could Write a Book."
By the way, the flat top is strung with 0.13 TI Jazz Swings. Is that too heavy for it?
DB
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DB (as always) sounds great. Jazz flattop playing is always interesting to me, and I go months when that’s all I play.
I think flatwounds sound great on flattops; they add midrange punch and cut some of the shimmering sound typical of many flattops. I use Chromes .012 to .052 on my Martin 000X and .013 to .056 on my Yamaha dreadnought. I have never had neck or bridge problems on either guitar using those strings.
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Lovely playing, and I'm a huge fan of flat-tops. They have a magic of their own.
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I like those D’Addario EFT Flat Tops Phosphor Bronze acoustic strings. More of a polished round than a true flat. Greatly reduces string squeak. Not quite the percussive punch almost piano like response I hear from my 175 with T!JazzSwing12s. But very interesting feel and response.
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I think the best thing to do would be to figure out what the total tension of the TI set is compared to what you were using. I do think TI's tend to be "lower tension" for a flatwound. Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
I've put flats on flat tops before, and I've found that on a cheaper, laminate back and sides instrument, they sounded better than on a nicer all solid wood guitar...but that's just my anecdotal evidence.
I'm very much into the Martin retro "Monel" strings on my flat top right now. Very balanced across the range of the guitar, great for jazz.
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There is no issue with using TI JazzSwing 13s on an acoustic flattop (not my first choice).
Attachment 88569
Regarding acoustic flattops, they are not homogeneous in how they operate or sound. Like with archtops, there is a world of different options that changes what is going on under the hood. Depending on how these are combined or manipulated, the guitar may be more or less suitable to a jazz player used to playing an archtop guitar. In general (key word), I typically would suggest most jazz guitarists who are used to playing an archtop looking for an flattop seek:
- a narrow waisted midsized or larger body (15"-16")
- with moderate depth (fast attack),
- straight taper bracing (favors balance over bass) and
- lower damping body woods (Mahogany or Maple for stronger fundamentals).
Flattops can have balance, strong trebles and enhanced bass. I think they tend to work better as solo instruments. They add enhanced bass response and complexity to the timbre over an archtop.
My $.02
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I’ve read that TIs are also a tiny bit thinner than Chromes etc of the same nominal gauge. It seems that TI uses a German measuring system that’s not exactly the same as the one used by almost every other string maker. I can’t find any substantiation for this right now, so it may just be mythology. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Thanks for this. I foolishly got rid of my Martin 000-15, and was thinking about getting another until I came across a Larrivée L-01. I like balance, so I went to buy a set of the Monel’s yesterday. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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