Guitarist endorsing guitars

[deacon Mark]

The thread on the Larry Carlton guitar got me thinking about guitars the players endorsements. In general it means nothing at all to me. The 2 guitar makers I worked for said it was a lost cause because in general guitarist changed guitars all the time and very little true loyalty. When there was true loyalty is went much deeper than any real monetary gain. I don't care at all who endorses a guitar the best endorsement is the guitar the player used most of the time.

Barney Kessel played in ES350 and I never saw him play his Gibson Kessel guitar. George Benson is maybe on exception in that he does play Ibanez but we all know he has super collection of the finest archtops ever made. That tells me something and I don't put any more stock in a GB guitar than what it means to me as a player ( they are fine but not my kind of guitar.)

I don't want to mention specific names but there are certainly well know jazz guitarist who have played a number of handmade jazz guitars. They changed ships pretty often in some cases. I am not a fan of Gibson 335 to play so Larry playing them did not make me bite. However Johnny Smith playing his D'angelico and GJS did. Joe Pass had a trusty ES175 and that speaks all we need to know. His signature guitar Epiphone I cannot stand and the Ibanez he had never comes close to the 175 in any respect. However when he used the D'aquisto he had that was pretty nice.

Kenny Burrell with the signature Super 400 over all the years stands out as the real endorsement. I assume he had no endorsement with Gibson but his playing that guitar through all the years. He then had a Heritage Kenny Burrell guitar model and that is a fine guitar but really I take the Super 400 over that any day. Now my friends...........that is an endorsement just like Johnny Smith and his D'a. Wes was using an L5 long before Gibson put his name to a specific model. Bruce Forman and his Gibson L5 another classic example. Bruce is a player among players.........his playing an L5 says it all.

So my point to this is that to me all guitars that have specific artist endorsement really mean nothing to me. I could care less who played the guitar. The question is that if I am looking for a guitar, I am looking for a guitar.........not a player. Catering up to a guitarist really is not something I would do if I had control over any major guitar production aspects. I am sure there are other points but this sticks out to me as the obvious. Oh on top of that I don't want anyone guitarist autograph my guitar that I see. Just give me a regular autograph and I can stick it in the case.

[Doctor Jeff]

I don't know much about the Larry Carlton models and whether he plays them publicly.

IDK, seems there are 2 different types of players. Those who have a great input into a design and stick with it for in some cases decades. That would include George Benson and Pat Metheny. Steve Morse still plays his signature Ernie Ball guitars. Another one is Tal Farlow. His signature only lasted 5 years when first issued, but he played it consistently after it came out.

AFAIK Kenny played his Heritage more or less exclusively since he got it.

Some people like Barney and Joe seem to be a bit more particular about what they do and don't like in a guitar, and more fickle about what they like at a given time.

OTOH their signature models are well thought of. (Sorry but I have to disagree about the Epi JP, which is a very good basic laminate jazz box, even if the electronics might not be top of the line--an easy fix, as they say.)

At least in the jazz realm I think a signature is a pretty good indication of a certain level of quality and design choices from the endorser. Whether that will inspire someone to play like that performer is another story.

[Archie]

I would have thought the GB monicker on a GB10, making it one of the best selling Ibanez archtops to date, means quite a lot.
A Scofield name on an AS200? 30 Years on and that guitar is still going strong.
The fact that the Gibson Les Paul (or a copy of) was played by Slash, even though it wasn't a sig model (check the prices on those btw) means that a signature or artist model is a pretty big deal.
A Jim Hall Sadowski probably hasn't hurt Sadowski's sales figures.

Sure, did a Herb Ellis Aria & Robbery Conti Aria work out? Well they weren't the biggest draw.

Look how Gibson since Slash has been courting young pop stars.

Brand recognition is everything and it's a great way to get some.

[Woody Sound]

Bruce Forman and his Gibson L5 another classic example. Bruce is a player among players.........his playing an L5 says it all.

ICBW,but I don't think Bruce has used his L5 regularly in a while.

[gitman]

Well much of this depends on the kind of deal the maker has with the player. Sometimes an endorsement deal has a time limit and it just ends after say a 2 year period. It all comes down to the fine print and we never learn what the details are - which is totally ok. Any speculation on this leads nowhere you even did not count in the large number of lesser known players and makers that have some kind of agreement re guitars, amps, strings, picks, capos, whatever.

Bruce Forman played his L5 for at least 20 years or longer and gave Sonntag guitars a big boost when he chose one of the models a few years ago. Carlton definitely used and uses his sig. Gibson on stage, the original Fender "Robben Ford" model is highly sought after and was in production only for a very short time. Some colleagues here in Germany had deals with Hofner when they built up their "custom shop" but there has been only one Sig. model for John Stowell. Kenny Burrell did promo work for Gibson as early as 1958 .....

[entresz]

Martin Taylor comes to mind, he has probably close to a dozen different signature guitars, made by all sorts of brands.

[Greentone]

Yep. +1 on 7.25" radius and vintage small frets.

[skykomishone]

Deacon, that's about right. Although, I do like the Pisano's. Peace!

[Woody Sound]

Gambale is another one, there are a bagillian different Gambale signature guitars. I'm waiting for a "Woody Sound" endorsement deal. Closest thing I came was a "performers discount" on a very high end pedal.

[iim7V7IM7]

This thread reminded me that I have had this guitar for 30-years. This was Larry’s first “Larry Carlton” Signature Model with Mike McGuire and Valley Arts Guitar when he had a falling out with Gibson in the late 1980s.

[Sam Sherry]

[Stringswinger]

John Jorgenson has had quite a few signature guitars in different genres (Strat, Tele, Flattop and Gypsy guitar) and he played them all among other guitars in his collection.

I saw Kenny Burell play live several times after his Heritage guitars came out, but Kenny always played a Super 400.

I saw Pat Martino play his signature Gibson and also his signature Benedetto when he played live.

When I performed with Mimi Fox, she used her signature Heritage guitar.

When I performed with Bruce Forman, he played his Sontagg, but at home, when I rehearsed with him. his L-5 or his prototype Bruce Forman Ibanez (which never came to market) was what he played.

When I performed with Larry Coryell, he played a Parker acoustic guitar, but I had seen him live with trio where he played his signature Cort guitar.

When I performed with Howard Alden, he played his signature Benedetto guitar.

When I performed with Stephane Wrembel, he played his signature Gitane guitar.

When I saw Bucky Pizzarelli perform, he used his signature Bennedetto and his son John used his signature Moll guitar.

I think many guitarists use their artist model. While Barney Kessel did not, Johnny Smith, Les Paul and Tal Farlow all did. The Epiphone Joe Pass model is not a pro level guitar, so Joe continued to play his Gibsons. I have seen pictures of Kenny Burell using his signature Heritage on gigs, but he never used them on the shows I saw in Santa Cruz and Oakland, California.

[John A.]

John Jorgenson has had quite a few signature guitars in different genres (Strat, Tele, Flattop and Gypsy guitar) and he played them all among other guitars in his collection.

I saw Kenny Burell play live several times after his Heritage guitars came out, but Kenny always played a Super 400.

I saw Pat Martino play his signature Gibson and also his signature Benedetto when he played live.

When I performed with Mimi Fox, she used her signature Heritage guitar.

When I performed with Bruce Forman, he played his Sontagg, but at home, when I rehearsed with him. his L-5 or his prototype Bruce Forman Ibanez (which never came to market) was what he played.

When I performed with Larry Coryell, he played a Parker acoustic guitar, but I had seen him live with trio where he played his signature Cort guitar.

When I performed with Howard Alden, he played his signature Benedetto guitar.

When I performed with Stephane Wrembel, he played his signature Gitane guitar.

When I saw Bucky Pizzarelli perform, he used his signature Bennedetto and his son John used his signature Moll guitar.

I think many guitarists use their artist model. While Barney Kessel did not, Johnny Smith, Les Paul and Tal Farlow all did. The Epiphone Joe Pass model is not a pro level guitar, so Joe continued to play his Gibsons. I have seen pictures of Kenny Burell using his signature Heritage on gigs, but he never used them on the shows I saw in Santa Cruz and Oakland, California.

I saw Joe Pass play the Epi (or at least a version/prototype of it) not too long before he died (in late 1993 IIRC), solo at the Blue Note. I went with a fellow frethead, and we couldn't figure out what the guitar was, but shortly after the model was announced and we had an aha! moment. I don't if he would have kept playing it, but definitely did at least once.

[AKA]

ICBW,but I don't think Bruce has used his L5 regularly in a while.

For years I only saw him play an Ibanez.

AKA

[Average Joe]

I used to own a JSM-100. Lovely guitar but imho an example of a fairly superfluous signature guitar. I don't *think* Ibanez made an AS200 at the time, but in any event the JSM is just an ever so slightly tweaked AS. Nice tweaks, but still. And to top it off, Sco never use them. I would have been just as happy buying an AS.
Fender is of course a master of that sort of thing - let's paint this strat green and call it a signature model. If it's *that* close to a regular, run of the mill model why even bother.

Otoh, if I like a particular guitar I don't care either way whether there's a signature on it or not.

[Woody Sound]

When I performed with Bruce Forman, he played his Sontagg, but at home, when I rehearsed with him. his L-5 or his prototype Bruce Forman Ibanez (which never came to market) was what he played.

The Ibanez looked like a neat guitar, I always wondered how big it is. 15" or 16"? When I saw Bruce back in the 70's he was still using the L5, but he is so tall it looked like a smaller guitar on him. I was very lucky to play on stage with him that night. But lately I believe he's been playing BK's actual 350.

[floatingpickup]

Martin Taylor comes to mind, he has probably close to a dozen different signature guitars, made by all sorts of brands.

Good point. Another example of multiple endorsements is Jimmy Bruno. I remember him endorsing Benedetto, Hofner, Sadowsky, Benedetto (again) and he seems to be playing a Comins in some of his recent home videos.

Keith

[iim7V7IM7]

To no ones surprise, guitar makers understand that placing their guitar in the hands of a great player has perennially sold guitars to guitarists. Guitarists hear a sound on an album or at a live appearance and want to replicate it. It can be a standard model in their hands or an artist endorsed model. Either way, it sells guitars. Certain guitars can become associated with artists. This concept is ubiquitous across all genres of music (e.g. Andreas Segovia played a Ramirez, Django played a Selmer, Wes played a Gibson L-5, Larry plays a Gibson 335, Stevie Ray Vaughn played a Fender Strat).

Some makers pay artists for endorsements or offer a piece of the action. Some provide guitars to artists gratis or at severe discount for the promise of public display of their instruments. Some makers charge artists for their instruments. Jazz stopped being popular music many decades ago and in turn, jazz artists financial circumstance moved in turn. John D'Angelico aside from making fine instruments, had the great fortune of being in the right place at the right time (e.g., in NYC when it was the center of music when jazz was popular music in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s). Later, Bob Benedetto had the great fortune of have a wife (Cindy) who made it part of their business to place their guitars in the hands of the great players of the 1980s and 1990s. Since jazz guitarists, even the top jazz guitarists few few exceptions struggle to make a living in a post album era were one gigs to live, guitar endorsements, like teaching is a supplemental part of their income in the form of a free guitar or discounted guitar typically. This is why you see so much turnover of endorsements in my view.

Many times with artist signature models, certain ergonomic and tonal adjustments are made to suit a specific artist's preferences that will be enjoyed by some and disliked by many. For example, the Valley Arts LC Standard that I own. I bought it 30-years ago because I thought Larry was the greatest. Years later, I play it rarely because it has an uber-thin neck and I prefer a meaty neck. The guitar came with Gibson P-100s and I later replaced them with low wind P-90s. It is the only artist endorsed guitar that I ever purchased. Today, I would never do so.

[Strbender]

Johnny A. Uses his own signature Gibson model pretty much all the time live.

[jim777]

I've had one or more of Steve Vai's Jem guitars in house since they came out from Ibanez in the late 80's. Definitely not a jazz guitar, but a guitar he's played ever since and which spawned 100 copies from other manufacturers.

[powerwagonjohn]

I recently bought a artist endorsed and designed guitar. I bought the Gibson Johnny A from our good friend Marty. Thanks Marty! What a great guitar. I didn't buy it because of Johnny A, although he is a great guitarist. I bought it because of it's unique design and specifications. well also because it looks great too!
Thanks John

[Cunamara]

Most of my favorite guitarists made their names playing standard guitars, not custom or signature instruments. The main exceptions to that were Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir, whose approach to equipment in general was pretty idiosyncratic. Among my favorite jazz guitarists, the Gibson ES-175 and L5 stand out as the instruments of choice in the majority of cases. If I was to ever look at buying a Gibson, it would be a standard ES-175- I prefer that sort of sound to that of the L5- although I would have a hard time justifying the price people want for those things these days. The lesson here for me is that the signature model guitar is largely an exercise in marketing. I think there are several notable exceptions to this.

First, the Ibanez GB 10. I have had one of those for 35 years now and it remains one of my favorite and most useful guitars. It is a unique voice, great to play and very practical as a gigging instrument.

Another exception, at least to my ears, is the Gibson Tal Farlow which is essentially an ES-350 and the only thing like it in the Gibson line for many years. It has a classic jazz voice that stands apart from most everything else available. A signature guitar I would happily consider, but not one that I would probably ever be able to afford.

Ditto the third exception, the Gibson Johnny Smith. While it is to a great extent the pattern for Benedetto (carved 17" body, 25" scale, mini humbucker, etc.), the structural differences (heavier top, unique neck block arrangement, neck mounted floater) make the GJS a better amplified performing instrument IMHO. The Benedetto, on the other hand, I think often sounds better acoustically.

I am ignoring the Les Paul. I've never played one that I liked ergonomically, although the tone is wonderful.

[Christian Miller]

The thread on the Larry Carlton guitar got me thinking about guitars the players endorsements. In general it means nothing at all to me. The 2 guitar makers I worked for said it was a lost cause because in general guitarist changed guitars all the time and very little true loyalty. When there was true loyalty is went much deeper than any real monetary gain. I don't care at all who endorses a guitar the best endorsement is the guitar the player used most of the time.

Barney Kessel played in ES350 and I never saw him play his Gibson Kessel guitar. George Benson is maybe on exception in that he does play Ibanez but we all know he has super collection of the finest archtops ever made. That tells me something and I don't put any more stock in a GB guitar than what it means to me as a player ( they are fine but not my kind of guitar.)

I don't want to mention specific names but there are certainly well know jazz guitarist who have played a number of handmade jazz guitars. They changed ships pretty often in some cases. I am not a fan of Gibson 335 to play so Larry playing them did not make me bite. However Johnny Smith playing his D'angelico and GJS did. Joe Pass had a trusty ES175 and that speaks all we need to know. His signature guitar Epiphone I cannot stand and the Ibanez he had never comes close to the 175 in any respect. However when he used the D'aquisto he had that was pretty nice.

Kenny Burrell with the signature Super 400 over all the years stands out as the real endorsement. I assume he had no endorsement with Gibson but his playing that guitar through all the years. He then had a Heritage Kenny Burrell guitar model and that is a fine guitar but really I take the Super 400 over that any day. Now my friends...........that is an endorsement just like Johnny Smith and his D'a. Wes was using an L5 long before Gibson put his name to a specific model. Bruce Forman and his Gibson L5 another classic example. Bruce is a player among players.........his playing an L5 says it all.

So my point to this is that to me all guitars that have specific artist endorsement really mean nothing to me. I could care less who played the guitar. The question is that if I am looking for a guitar, I am looking for a guitar.........not a player. Catering up to a guitarist really is not something I would do if I had control over any major guitar production aspects. I am sure there are other points but this sticks out to me as the obvious. Oh on top of that I don't want anyone guitarist autograph my guitar that I see. Just give me a regular autograph and I can stick it in the case.

For the artist its an opportunity to get a relatively replaceable touring instrument built to your specs. I have it on good authority the notion of guitar companies throwing gear at you when you are well known players (even rock stars) is a little bit of a myth, even for your own signature model!

Depends on how much you want to keep that vintage guitar safe and sound, or risk taking it on the road. Some are happy to take that risk….

i don’t think non pro players realise what a pain this is. Joe pass was happy to check his Gibson in a soft case (!), but for most of us getting guitars through airports is a constant battle. Give me a mid range Ibanez or Godin in a hard case in hold and at least I don’t have to play mind games with the airport staff to get them to let me take into the cabin (and run a small risk of the guitar getting smashed up or lost before the gig, but should that happen I can probably get another, and I can write it off against the life of the instrument in accounting terms.) the uncertainty of travelling on at lines with instruments is a constant stress for the touring musican and well known players are most certainly not immune.

You could of course buy a seat for the guitar, but that’s more money, and airport staff can be obstructive about this too, if you get someone randomly officious… it’s all very uncertain.

I think Bruce Forman uses a high end Calton flight case and checks his guitar. I wonder if he’ll fly with Barney’s old axe (which is the guitar he’s playing atm) maybe he’ll tour with the red Sontag (IRRC he sold the L5 because he wasn’t playing it), but who knows? His philosophy is ‘instruments should be played’

As for buying someone else’s signature guitar, if it’s a good guitar why not? I hear the Les Paul signature model did quite well.

[Litterick]

As for buying someone else’s signature guitar, if it’s a good guitar why not?

Because we are adults.

[jim777]

Because we are adults.

Speak for yourself