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[QUOTE=DMgolf66;1148515]
Originally Posted by silverfoxx
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09-26-2021 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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A member posted the following on the Forum for Mr. Koehler's consideration:
"Hi Mat,
Back to revamping the L5s, here's list of changes I've compiled over several years of research, maybe this would help out in recreating the original vintage magic. Look how badly they screwed them up in 1970!
1951-1954 P-90s and plastic Kluson sealfast tuner buttons
1953 Metal ABR-1 bridge replaces wooden
1954-1957 Alnico Pickups
1955 2-foot bridge replaces solid foot, barrel knobs replace speed knobs
1956 Metal tuner buttons, celluloid binding replaces wood in cutout
1957 PAF pickups
Late 1957-58 Rubber grommet added to switch
1960 Florentine cut began (basically ended in 1969), pickguard screwed to top instead of pinned to side of neck
1962-1969 Solid backs replaced by ply (starting in 1965 some solid backs were used mostly in Venetian L5s), 3-piece neck replaces 2-piece
1963 transition year to CTS pots and to black with yellow interior cases
Late 1965 beginning transition to sombrero knobs, headstock angle changed from 17 to 14 degrees
1967-2012 Truss rod sheath
1970 fiberboard headstock overlay replaces wood
smaller flower pot on headstock
Volute added (ended in 1982)
Screw-on pickguard mount used replacing traditional
MOP inlay added to feet of bridge
neck set raised much higher making string tension higher
slope of top near neck changed necessitating turning neck pickup backwards to make pickup even with strings
stopped fancy truss rod cover
1976 Cherry and Black finishes added
1980 Schaller tuning machines replace Kluson Sealfast
Tailpieces
1976-1992 no varitone hole
1976-1983 silver insert
1984-1992 Black Insert
1993 silver insert"
I am in no way verifying the accuracy of the information (there are many of you here that have the expertise in that area), but merely posting it here for informational purposes. If anyone has anything to add or contradict, please let me know and I'd be happy to post on the other Forum.
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Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
So, when they say, 'all new models' - it's just marketing so some people may think there is something new to buy/covet. Like their Historic Signature Les Paul's - "this is a recreation of Mike Bloomfield's Les Paul" and it costs $5k more than a regular Historic but looks nothing like Mike's old Les Paul, is not historically accurate in specs, and is no different than a regular Historic other than they tried (and mostly failed) to match the flame pattern.
Right now, you can pay $3,299 for a new ES-335 or $5,999 for a new 1959 ES-335 re-issue. That $2,700 gets you? dirty finish, different dot material, different nut material, different plastic material for the knobs, and no truss rod condom.
They are in a tough spot as their choices are:
1) come up with a revolutionary new model(s)
2) switch up the marketing to package the same product in a different pitch and raise the price
3) make slight tweaks that entice enough new buyers but don't put off traditionalists (overlaps with #2)
They've been treading mostly with #2 and some of #3.
When it comes to re-using old models, Nike as been making a ton of money by re-releasing classic sneakers in different color combinations. They sell out so fast they have had to implement a draw system in recent times. But, they don't have to worry about traditionalists - jazz guitarists, more than other crowds, don't like huge departures from tradition, at least when it comes to their instruments. It would be interesting to see how much demand there would be for different colors of the L5, ES-175 with exclusivity built in. "1 of 5 all black limited edition", "1 of 5 faded blonde", light burst, honey burst, bourbon burst, historic burst, <insert any word> burst
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Originally Posted by HeyNow
Like any business, Gibson has to come up with ways of selling their products, which is usually accomplished by marketing ploys. So, instead of making a guitar to the exact same specs as its original model, they make subtle changes every year, which allows them to market them using phrases such as: "It's our most historically accurate (insert model name) yet!" If they didn't do that, or the buyers didn't fall for it, sales would stagnate, revenues would decline and ultimately... Well, we know how that ends.
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Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
"This is great! And way easier to follow than the archived Engineering Change Notices, haha.
One you missed -- the body profile changes slightly in the mid 1950s, specifically the cutaway shape!
Very happy that Kluson is once again manufacturing Sealfast tuners...we were dreading that element of the proper reissue."
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Gibson would probably do well opening the M2M program to archtops. Buyer gets to pick the top and back woods and maybe customize a few specs like neck shape.
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Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
If you'd like, I can post this on the other Forum to see if Mr. Koehler has any other details?
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I'll take whatever I can afford and do my best to make it work for my needs/wants/delusions. It's worked for me so far, sort of.
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I wonder who would be carving the solid guitars and mandos?
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carving by Gibson master luthier, Mr. CNC, QA by Mr. Plek.
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Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Originally Posted by jazzkritter
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With the right hands guiding them, Mr. CNC and Mr. Plek could make as fine an archtop as anyone. And while Mr. CNC can do a perfect job on the rough carve, the finish carving will require the touch of a talented human to get it right.
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I know of at least two brands, Dupont and Iris guitars, that use CNC to assist production, both make fine guitars. CNC seems like a very sensible decision in 2021.
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Just thoughts: I think Taylor uses CNC extensively. They do make a nice guitar (if that’s what you like) and according to their magazine it’s why they can offer the quality at their price point. I’m thinking with the “size” of the arch top market, Gibson is going to have to minimize production costs as best as possible. CNC. But is that so new?
No. when they made my L5, they used a cutting jig that was brought down from Kalamazoo (mine built in 1989). I recall the sales rep was told the jig was wearing out and a reason I had a two year wait while they rebuilt it (and got caught up). Lol ‘the jig was up’ as they used to say.
So what’s the difference if the cutting jig is hand driven or computer driven? It’s still carving to an established pattern, one auto one manual. And, as stringswinger says, after the pattern carve someone cleans it up and voila it’s hand carved.
But I still maintain everything going on at Gibson is not about guitars, but somehow tied to making the value of the company and products as high as they can before unloading to some other entity. Having high price collectibles fits right in that scheme. It’s the KKR way, get a skinny sick pig, fatten, apply lipstick, and sell. And make money, a reasonable return on their investment.
Sometimes I miss Henry. This JC guy, I dunno.
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Originally Posted by jazzkritter
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Originally Posted by jazzkritter
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I've seen a picture of that Gibson copier JKritter talks about. I think I read it was nicknamed The Monster. Looked like it would definitely take a bite out of you if you weren't careful. I'd far rather operate (that is to say watch) a CNC do it's work than operate that thing. It would've been the starting point for a great many of the Gibson's we covet today. The ol' boys weren't dumb. Woodworkers have always looked for a better way.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mark Campy uses something similar for roughing out. I believe it's the 'duplicarver' in the shop section of his website. I think I read a post here with him talking about it's use. I say do the rough work with a chainsaw if it works for you, and preserve those joints and tendons so you can provide us with more exquisite instruments down the road!
Any tool, including electric or meat powered, is only as good as the person behind it.
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So when I’ve seen videos of recent Gibson tours by Caesar. There always seem to be one or two arch tops being built in the racks in the background.
So while not being advertised or mentioned, it seems as though they’ve never really stopped making them. It’s just not in full production in any way.
I think Phillip Wharton is still with them and his arch tops builds were stellar imo! But all that said I can’t imagine paying what they will be charging for one.
Mark Campellone is still the Best Bet imo!
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Another question posed that may be of interest:
"Hey Matt -
I know that James Hutchins was your " Jazz box " guru
I would really love to hear a little bit about his story and in 2021 who is your new arch top guru and maybe just a little about him too"
"Thanks for asking! I have learned so much about Hutch I feel like I knew him personally, but in fact I'd only briefly met him a couple times before he passed. There's a nice biography on him https://musicrow.com/2010/01/gibson-luthier-hutchins-passes/ with photos too. But I'll add that his legacy at Gibson was all about preserving tribal knowledge from Kalamazoo. He became known for his passion surrounding archtop guitars but really he is responsible for so much more. He was THE guy going back and forth from Kalamazoo to Nashville bringing prints, process sheets, fixtures, jigs, etc -- anything that would benefit future production.
Someone who worked closely with Hutch is now our resident archtop guru...Doug Culberson. Doug is one of those guys that can build a guitar out of a tree stump if he had to...he's a savant-level luthier and a great guy to boot. Doug is central in our plans to introduce a Historic Reissue archtop collection sometime in 2023. Stay tuned. And thanks for the question!"
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Funny I just asked Gibson to build me a ebony L5 and Gibson told me we are no longer
building any archtops at this time including no more L5's.
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Not profitable enough for them I suppose. So buy used or better yet have Mark Campellone make you a Custom Gibson style Archtop!
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Originally Posted by Gitterbug
Gibson has mostly priced themselves out of the musicians' market. You can get an LP studio or special or something like that, but most of the stuff they make now is for doctors and lawyers. I wouldn't hold my breath for a "Studio ES-175" for $1500.
The truth is, if you are talking laminates, companies like Ibanez and the like are making good guitars at good values. You can get a good sounding archtop with good electronics and pickups for well under $1000. Do you think Gibson will ever try to compete with that? I doubt it.
If you are talking carved, there are many other options available that equal Gibson at competitive prices.
Don't get me wrong. I love a good Gibson! But I just can't pay silly money for them anymore. I'm out of that game.
16" 1920s/30s L5
Today, 08:44 PM in For Sale