Why (in your opinion) does Gibson no longer put '57 classics on Les Pauls

**Fat Fingers** · 05-27-2021, 04:10 PM

I was window shopping over on sweetwater, a truly dangerous pastime for my wallet, and as I was looking I realized that none of the les pauls have 57 classics on them. I really like the neck 57 in my old first generation les paul traditional pro and I thought I'd look into a LP with two of them but apparently Gibson doesn't build that guitar stock anymore.

My understating is that in years past the Les Paul traditionals had 57' classics in them. Why do you think that Gibson no longer uses them? Are the Burstbuckers just superior in every way?

Not really a jazz question but I wanted to see what you all thought.

**JSanta** · 05-27-2021, 04:12 PM

I had a 2019 60s LP Standard for a couple of years, and never gave much thought to the pickups. The guitar just sounded monstrous, which is exactly what I was looking for. It sounded like you'd expect a great Les Paul to sound.

**steve burchfield** · 05-27-2021, 04:45 PM

I bought a 2019 Gibson ES-335 made in Memphis and was pleased with the craftmanship and acoustic sound of the instrument but was certainly underwhelmed with the pickups. I tried a 1969 Gibson with T-Tops and it was so much better it wasnt even close. So I decided I wanted decent pickups in my expensive guitar. There were some trades involved but I have about 4 K in it. I tried Tyson Tone and it was a bad experience. I sent my guitar to Glaser instruments to have Lindy Fralin Pure PAFs and the tech at Glasers thinks they work really well in that instrument. I should have it by Monday. All in all Ive lost about 6 months of enjoyment because of mediocre pickups. Listening to how good Chris Whiteman sounded with Fralins influenced me and I think Ill be very happy with mine. Its not a mystery that really good pickup makers are prospering because lots of manufacturer make guitars that benefit from them.

**jim777** · 05-27-2021, 04:50 PM

I haven't played a Les Paul in 20 years that sounds as good as my stock Tokai HLS. It has pickups called "The 59" in them, and they are superb. The guitar cost me about 1300, and a friend offered me his G0 for it after playing it for about 5 minutes. So, my thought is if you're looking for a great playing and sounding Les Paul for less than Gibson money Tokai may be a safe bet.

**Gitfiddler** · 05-27-2021, 05:15 PM

Gibson has offered Classic 57's as standard pickups for years, but they seem to not be able to leave well-enough alone.

Over the years they changed to Burstbuckers (1&2); 490R/T; then MHS; and more recently "T-Types".

Not sure if Classic 57's are still available across all product lines, but I doubt it.

**Cunamara** · 05-27-2021, 05:50 PM

Distortion. The Classic 57 tends to become mushy sounding with lots of distortion. For clean tones I think it tends to sound a lot better than most other "PAF" style pickups. If demonstrations on YouTube or anything to go by, though, most guitarists play with very heavy distortion through one (or more) cranked up distortion pedals. Clean sound is irrelevant- for most these days, tone seems to = brightness. Just like with over-hopped American IPAs and politics, subtlety and nuance are passé.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-27-2021, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Just like with over-hopped American IPAs

Tone-wise, I'm looking for a dry martini.

**citizenk74** · 05-27-2021, 06:37 PM

"Fixing" Gibson's "mistakes" is a substantial portion of the music industry as it pertains to electric guitars. I have several Gibsons, pretty much all of which bear different humbuckers. I like them all and frankly, between my technique and the liberal use of knobs and switches, they all end up sounding like me. Tell you what, though - the '57 Classics in my ES-175 ain't going nowhere, ever. Nor are the Patent Sticker pups in my '64 ES-345TDSV.
I've had a couple of Les Pauls with Seymour Duncan pups I liked a lot. A lot. the bridge pups were styled, IIANGM, on the PAF profile, with the necks called "jazz."

Consider that Gibson might think some of the Gibson-style aftermarket pups sold might be... Gibsons?

**ThatRhythmMan** · 05-27-2021, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Distortion. The Classic 57 tends to become mushy sounding with lots of distortion. For clean tones I think it tends to sound a lot better than most other "PAF" style pickups. If demonstrations on YouTube or anything to go by, though, most guitarists play with very heavy distortion through one (or more) cranked up distortion pedals. Clean sound is irrelevant- for most these days, tone seems to = brightness. Just like with over-hopped American IPAs and politics, subtlety and nuance are passé.

Oh man, I couldn’t disagree more. I use Classic 57s in some guitars and play through ridiculously high gain ENGL amps and they stay crisp and tight.

Burstbuckers, btw, come in multiple variations with different magnets.

**jads57** · 05-27-2021, 11:55 PM

From my understanding Classic 57 both coils have equal amount of winds on them. Where as the Burstbuckers, have different amount of winds on each coil and are scatter wound.
This produces a different tone that's less midrange heavy. Although there are many Gibson versions of Humbuckers.

Classic 57s sound really good in a ES-339. But I really like the new Calibrated Humbuckers in my Original ES-345

**ccroft** · 05-28-2021, 01:45 AM

Marketing? Somebody thinks 'Burstbucker' sells better than '57 Classic'. Maybe they even did a focus group. They'll change it up again when 'Burstbucker' or whatever starts to sound boring. Sounds a bit tired now come to think of it.

I played LP's from '70 to '76. Back then nobody I knew talked about magnets, impedance, or even pickup swapping. If you liked Les Pauls you went with 'Gibson' pickups. They sounded great. If you were a little adventurous you might even get some guy to wire in a few mini-switches to change it up some.

Must have something to do with that guy in the hat that used to be in Guns & Roses...

**Stringswinger** · 05-28-2021, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by ccroft

Marketing? Somebody thinks 'Burstbucker' sells better than '57 Classic'. Maybe they even did a focus group. They'll change it up again when 'Burstbucker' or whatever starts to sound boring. Sounds a bit tired now come to think of it.

I played LP's from '70 to '76. Back then nobody I knew talked about magnets, impedance, or even pickup swapping. If you liked Les Pauls you went with 'Gibson' pickups. They sounded great. If you were a little adventurous you might even get some guy to wire in a few mini-switches to change it up some.

Must have something to do with that guy in the hat that used to be in Guns & Roses...

I liked the T-Tops in my 70's Les Pauls just fine, but I like 57 Classics even more. Burstbuckers? Not so much. They are a bit too bright for my taste. My current Lester has a 490R in the neck position which to my ears, sounds a lot like a 57 Classic.

**Litterick** · 05-28-2021, 05:05 AM

They will be back, but only in a special of some kind. Gibson is manipulating the market, creating artificial scarcity. Gibson has not made a truly new guitar for twenty years or more. Gibson uses its stock of 'iconic' 1950s designs and offers them in various configurations. Only by restricting some features and offering others can Gibson excite interest in its products. Otherwise, they would be same old guitars they were making in 1959.

Gibson gave and Gibson hath taken away. Blessed be the name of Gibson.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 05-28-2021, 05:20 PM

Well, they have done SOME arguably truly new guitars, but everyone would like to forget most of them.

Gibson Guitar: Gibson Firebird X

**Gitfiddler** · 05-28-2021, 05:53 PM

Fortunately, most of the modern day Gibson pickups are available as an aftermarket item. I'm a fan of Classic 57's.

**ccroft** · 05-29-2021, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I liked the T-Tops in my 70's Les Pauls just fine, but I like 57 Classics even more. Burstbuckers? Not so much. They are a bit too bright for my taste. My current Lester has a 490R in the neck position which to my ears, sounds a lot like a 57 Classic.

I had to google T-Top. My '61 LP that looked like an SG would've had actual PAFs. When that got stolen around '74 I got a Custom that was a few years old. It looked like a Les Paul. Guess that would've been T-Tops. Both were pretty good. Could be I never owned a Burstbucker, a '57 or a 490R.

I've been kicking around the idea of owning a LP again for a while now, but it's starting to look a bit complicated!

**Stringswinger** · 05-29-2021, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by ccroft

I had to google T-Top. My '61 LP that looked like an SG would've had actual PAFs. When that got stolen around '74 I got a Custom that was a few years old. It looked like a Les Paul. Guess that would've been T-Tops. Both were pretty good. Could be I never owned a Burstbucker, a '57 or a 490R.

I've been kicking around the idea of owning a LP again for a while now, but it's starting to look a bit complicated!

You had great pickups with those short magnet PAF's in your SG/LesPaul and the patent sticker T-Tops in your early 70's Les Paul Custom. I am OK with the patent stamped T-tops that came in the late 70's, the Shaw pickups that came in the 80's and the Classic 57's (and 490R's). I have never liked Burstbuckers (of any type) and I am OK with the MHS pickups, but actually prefer the Classic 57's. If you buy a Les Paul and do not like the Burstbuckers that many come with these days, a Pickup swap is easy, and from what I see on the web, quite common.

**ccroft** · 05-29-2021, 02:04 PM

Thanks for the lesson String! If I do get one I won't be spending for actual vintage or brand new, so I'll hope for '57s or do the swap. And it'll have to be chambered. That 70's Custom was a load to bear even after I took off the pick-guard and pickup covers :)

**GNAPPI** · 05-29-2021, 04:07 PM

Question... When can you buy a 335 or a Les Paul online and have a reasonably good idea what kind of sound envelope it will have when you get it? Time up... never. Changing pups willynilly on the assembly line dilutes expectations, changing the pups into sub models adds more heat than light to the sound discussion.

The burstbuckers and MHS went too shrill for me. Made worse still by the variations (BB2,3 and pro and MHS2 ) that came out later on.

Hey, Gibson is selling pups and miraculously players who swap them out like dirty socks are happy, but not so much when I ask them what they did with the 57's they dumped to fund their new miracle pups and I won't buy :-)

Anyway, standard two wire 57's never disappointed me. There's only one pup for neck and bridge positions, and if they're good enough for the L5CES, they're good enough for me.

**2bornot2bop** · 05-29-2021, 04:08 PM

Because Gibson no longer makes those either.

**Stringswinger** · 05-29-2021, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by ccroft

Thanks for the lesson String! If I do get one I won't be spending for actual vintage or brand new, so I'll hope for '57s or do the swap. And it'll have to be chambered. That 70's Custom was a load to bear even after I took off the pick-guard and pickup covers

I have been a Les Paul guy since I got my first one in 1980. At this point (63 years old) a 10-11 pound guitar is too much. There are chambered Les Pauls that weigh in at about 7 pounds and there are weight relieved Les Pauls and ultra modern weight relieved Les Pauls, neither of which are as light as the chambered models, but both of which, to my ears are indistinguishable from a non-weight relieved model. To my ears, the chambered ones sound "different". My current Lester is a 2017 Studio with the ultra modern weight relief. She weighs 7 pounds 14 ounces. I am good to go, she is a sweet axe (and didn't break the bank to boot).

**Stringswinger** · 05-29-2021, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by GNAPPI

Question... When can you buy a 335 or a Les Paul online and have a reasonably good idea what kind of sound envelope it will have when you get it? Time up... never. Changing pups willynilly on the assembly line dilutes expectations, changing the pups into sub models adds more heat than light to the sound discussion.

The burstbuckers and MHS went too shrill for me. Made worse still by the variations (BB2,3 and pro and MHS2 ) that came out later on.

Hey, Gibson is selling pups and miraculously players who swap them out like dirty socks are happy, but not so much when I ask them what they did with the 57's they dumped to fund their new miracle pups and I won't buy :-)

Anyway, standard two wire 57's never disappointed me. There's only one pup for neck and bridge positions, and if they're good enough for the L5CES, they're good enough for me.

I am a fan of Classic 57's and like them better than T-tops and Shaws and any "boutique" PAF's. I do like real PAF's (some of them anyway, they do vary) the best, but I am unwilling to pay their current price. IMO, the MHS are a bit shrill but still acceptable. Burstbuckers? I have never been able to get a jazz sound I like with them and I have had them in several different guitars. Others may like them (I seem to remember Jack Zucker loved the Burstbuckers in his Barney Kessel Gibson).

I haven't done a rock, blues or Country gig in over a decade and so for me having a great jazz tone is paramount. Other than Gibson, I have tried Benedetto pickups (did not like them at all) Duncan 59's (Almost as good as a 57 Classic, but a bit too bright) and Kent Armstrong handwound PAF's (which are right up there with 57 Classics IMO).

**bluejaybill** · 05-29-2021, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I am a fan of Classic 57's and like them better than T-tops and Shaws and any "boutique" PAF's. I do like real PAF's (some of them anyway, they do vary) the best, but I am unwilling to pay their current price. IMO, the MHS are a bit shrill but still acceptable. Burstbuckers? I have never been able to get a jazz sound I like with them and I have had them in several different guitars. Others may like them (I seem to remember Jack Zucker loved the Burstbuckers in his Barney Kessel Gibson).

I haven't done a rock, blues or Country gig in over a decade and so for me having a great jazz tone is paramount. Other than Gibson, I have tried Benedetto pickups (did not like them at all) Duncan 59's (Almost as good as a 57 Classic, but a bit too bright) and Kent Armstrong handwound PAF's (which are right up there with 57 Classics IMO).

Interesting. I have a T-top from my first LP, a '68 Custom, my first good electric. Of course I switched the pickups out for after market, but I still have one of the T-tops, an early patent number. I'm thinking about putting it in an archtop to replace a custom ceramic Armstrong (Borys guitar, it's kind of a bright pickup). Or Kent said he could wind me a more traditional, warmer PAF style, but he thought the old T-top might be worth trying.

In my LP, a '94 R8, I have the extreme good fortune to have a pair of original PAF's that I bought decades ago. Probably short magnets, they sound glorious. I wonder what the original pickups were? I still have them, but they were only in the guitar for about an hour!

**Stringswinger** · 05-29-2021, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by bluejaybill

Interesting. I have a T-top from my first LP, a '68 Custom, my first good electric. Of course I switched the pickups out for after market, but I still have one of the T-tops, an early patent number. I'm thinking about putting it in an archtop to replace a custom ceramic Armstrong (Borys guitar, it's kind of a bright pickup). Or Kent said he could wind me a more traditional, warmer PAF style, but he thought the old T-top might be worth trying.

In my LP, a '94 R8, I have the extreme good fortune to have a pair of original PAF's that I bought decades ago. Probably short magnets, they sound glorious. I wonder what the original pickups were? I still have them, but they were only in the guitar for about an hour!

Short magnet PAF's are my favorite pickup. IMO, for jazz, there are none better. Your R8 probably sounds amazing.

I think you will like your patent sticker T-top better than the ceramic Pickup that it will replace, but I would source a 57 Classic (or maybe a handwound Kent Armstrong) for the Borys, if a warm creamy tone is what you are after.

Your pickups from that 94 R8 are probably 57 Classics, so it sounds like you have options for the Borys in hand.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 05-29-2021, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by bluejaybill

Interesting. I have a T-top from my first LP, a '68 Custom, my first good electric. Of course I switched the pickups out for after market, but I still have one of the T-tops, an early patent number. I'm thinking about putting it in an archtop to replace a custom ceramic Armstrong (Borys guitar, it's kind of a bright pickup). Or Kent said he could wind me a more traditional, warmer PAF style, but he thought the old T-top might be worth trying.

In my LP, a '94 R8, I have the extreme good fortune to have a pair of original PAF's that I bought decades ago. Probably short magnets, they sound glorious. I wonder what the original pickups were? I still have them, but they were only in the guitar for about an hour!

Patent number T-tops are likely my favorite pickup for a set pickup archtop. That’s what in both my ex-Herb Ellis ES-175 and my ‘69 Super 400. They aren’t great for metal though.