Converting 1949 Gibson L-4C into L-4CES —any experience?

[zizala]

I just posted about this L-4c in the current "L-7 vs L-4c" sort of thread....

I like this '50 L-4c with a McCarty, but it was great with an old DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 as well.

Rather than cut and convert a decent old acoustic L-4c, I'd get a '50's ES-175 and double my pleasure.

[maggles55]

It is not an emotional response. I would suggest that you do much more research and thinking about jazz guitars. Your question is quite valid but it also tells me that if you do not know the difference and do not understand, more work is needed on your part before you do do this. Reminds me about the great Chet Atkins who had John D'angelico make him an acoustic Excel. After getting it a few years later Chet put pickups in the top and a bigsby. At the time that was certainly not a good move but today it would be consider stupid of all stupid. As great a player as Chet was it proved he made some not so wise choices guitar-wise for his playing. Luckily he later had D'angelico put a new top on the guitar. I believe you simply have to do a lot more homework on the sound you want and possible go through a number of guitars before you get to the place you need to be.............wherever that is.

Sorry, but I do not see a problem here........

said the guy who converted his vintage Ferrari into a pick-up truck:

[John A.]

I think you're underestimating the cost. Adding 2 pickups (and pots and a jack) and having the braces repositioned will probably cost more than $1,000 if done by a qualified luthier/technician depending on where you live. In the SF bay area, I'd expect to pay 2k for a job this complex.

Makes sense. I was assuming about a grand, but there are places where things cost less than in NYC or SF (or so I've heard ...)

John

[Goldtop69]

Thank you all for your answers. And very special thanks to @omphalopsychos for going the extra mile and then some! This is exactly the kind of technical information I was looking for.
and thanks to @Steve for the eye candies.
stay well and stay safe you all —we still have a few months of “rough seas” ahead of us.
Cheers from the great frozen wasteland of Montreal.

[Franz 1997]

In the 70s, I bought a "converted" L4C from a second-hand store in London. It was cheap, and I could just about afford it. I still have the guitar and play it. When bought, the guitar had P90s, badly fitted, hacked braces, a pickguard with stick-on initials, a case with stickers from all the holiday camps in the UK, and controls in the wrong place. After many years of work, it is now in reasonable condition structurally, though rough-looking cosmetically. It plays extremely well.

I have also had a few L4CES and 175s, so can make a direct comparison.
-the L4c has a small acoustic voice compared to either the L4CES or 175. It is a delicate sound without much acoustic bass
-electrically, the L4C conversion does not sound like an L4CES. The CES is thicker-built, sounds more bassy, and more 'electric'.
-for my taste, a late 50s L4C has a consistent, fat-ish neck shape that I far prefer to the thin/ thick modern Gibson L4CES and 175 shapes

Predictably, many voices here say 'don't do it'. I agree. That said, a hacked L4C can still work as an electric guitar, although with little acoustic sound.

[JazzNote]

.... and very much dislike floating pickups.

Thanks for your feedback!

What is it about floating pickups that you dislike?

[Goldtop69]

Many thanks Franz! Great insight!
JazzNote: with floating pickups, I’ve had a difficult time playing in bands without experiencing feedback. I also didn’t care much for the sound —but that may be a function of the individual pickups I tried—, which I found too thin..... would you have a suggestion?
cheers!

[Stringswinger]

Many thanks Franz! Great insight!
JazzNote: with floating pickups, I’ve had a difficult time playing in bands without experiencing feedback. I also didn’t care much for the sound —but that may be a function of the individual pickups I tried—, which I found too thin..... would you have a suggestion?
cheers!

Before you do any cutting of that vintage guitar, try a handmade Kent Armstrong Johnny Smith Pickup. It may change your mind about floating pickups.....

[Goldtop69]

Before you do any cutting of that vintage guitar, try a handmade Kent Armstrong Johnny Smith Pickup. It may change your mind about floating pickups.....

Will do!

[sgosnell]

I like the DeArmond Rhythm Chief, attached with Blu-Tack. Controls can be thumbwheels attached under the pickguard or inside the treble f hole, or you can use minipots in the pickguard. It gives close to a set pickup sound, without changing the top at all.

[JazzNote]

JazzNote: with floating pickups, I’ve had a difficult time playing in bands without experiencing feedback. I also didn’t care much for the sound —but that may be a function of the individual pickups I tried—, which I found too thin..... would you have a suggestion?
cheers!

- Over the years i've tried quite a few floaters and found the most important feature to be the adjustable polepieces. A Kent Armstrong (handmade) 12 pole PU is ideal in that respect because for each string it has two adjustable screws. It also sounds very warm.
- I like the sound of the Bartolini a lot but the downside of this is that there are no adjustable polepieces.
- The Dommenget Jazzbucker sounds great too, but on this, the polepiece adjustments cannot be done with the mounted PU, which makes fine adjustment hard to do.
- Recently i installed a P90 single coil floater by Pete Biltoft which sounds great, but i feel that the KA pickups are more resistant against feedback.
- I also like the sound of the DeArmond Rhythm Chief, but have no practical experience with it, only tried one at home, never in a live band situation, so i don't know how resistant it is to feedback.

General advice: the feedback usually occurs in certain frequencies only, so if you succeed taming them you are out of trouble. I do that in two ore three stages. 1st: adjustable polepieces, 2nd: using a parametric eq in the chain, 3rd: often i play over a Acoustic Image Clarus amp which has a low frequency filter to cut just the bottom, leaving the higher frequencies untouched. And another important device is the volume pedal which i use on 99% of my gigs - it enables me, if necessary, to continuously play at the verge of feedback without getting any of it, by intuitively reducing volume whenever i feel that it would start.

[Jabberwocky]

This IS the Kent Armstrong: Guitar pickups - Handmade pickups by Kent Armstrong .

[citizenk74]

- Over the years i've tried quite a few floaters and found the most important feature to be the adjustable polepieces. A Kent Armstrong (handmade) 12 pole PU is ideal in that respect because for each string it has two adjustable screws. It also sounds very warm.
- I like the sound of the Bartolini a lot but the downside of this is that there are no adjustable polepieces.
- The Dommenget Jazzbucker sounds great too, but on this, the polepiece adjustments cannot be done with the mounted PU, which makes fine adjustment hard to do.
- Recently i installed a P90 single coil floater by Pete Biltoft which sounds great, but i feel that the KA pickups are more resistant against feedback.
- I also like the sound of the DeArmond Rhythm Chief, but have no practical experience with it, only tried one at home, never in a live band situation, so i don't know how resistant it is to feedback.

General advice: the feedback usually occurs in certain frequencies only, so if you succeed taming them you are out of trouble. I do that in two ore three stages. 1st: adjustable polepieces, 2nd: using a parametric eq in the chain, 3rd: often i play over a Acoustic Image Clarus amp which has a low frequency filter to cut just the bottom, leaving the higher frequencies untouched. And another important device is the volume pedal which i use on 99% of my gigs - it enables me, if necessary, to continuously play at the verge of feedback without getting any of it, by intuitively reducing volume whenever i feel that it would start.

Plus one for the Acoustic Image system. I have Corus Series III, and the tuneable LF filter is absolutely invaluable in getting a tight, manageable tone. My JHS Haunting Mids parametric equalizer also comes in might handy as a boost/cut to fit your tone to the room as needed.

[Woodstove]

I can't resist chiming in here. I joined the forum today. My L4C story is from the other side. In 1998 I walked into a shop on 48th St in NY looking for a jazz guitar. I found a 1959 L4C with a pickup already installed.



Played beautifully, sounded very good, I bought it. I was free of any thoughts of violating a fine old acoustic, and I had great respect for them having owned many really good folk acoustics. I just knew it was a good instrument. By the way, I forget the pedigree of the pickup, can anyone remind me of its' name/model? Thanks and great to be here with you folks....Peter

[omphalopsychos]

That’s a dearmond model 55. Congrats, dearmond was the best pickup maker in the world in the 50s (sorry Gibson). I bet that thing sounds great.

[Woodstove]

That’s a dearmond model 55. Congrats, dearmond was the best pickup maker in the world in the 50s (sorry Gibson). I bet that thing sounds great.

Thanks man! That's exactly what they told me when I bought it, and yep, it sounds great!!

[Hammertone]

1249989[/URL]]I can't resist chiming in here. I joined the forum today. My L4C story is from the other side. In 1998 I walked into a shop on 48th St in NY looking for a jazz guitar. I found a 1959 L4C with a pickup already installed.
Played beautifully, sounded very good, I bought it. I was free of any thoughts of violating a fine old acoustic, and I had great respect for them having owned many really good folk acoustics. I just knew it was a good instrument. By the way, I forget the pedigree of the pickup, can anyone remind me of its' name/model? Thanks and great to be here with you folks....Peter

That’s a flush-mounted pickup - it sits on the top of the guitar, without the need to cut into the top plate.

[Woodstove]

That's so good to hear! Thanks. Nice to know I have an unviolated L4C, I always thought it was cut in....Peter

[GuyBoden]

Here's my 1949 Gibson L4C with a Lollar pickguard, (the first one he made I believe.).

With this setup there's no damage to the guitar and can be converted back to an acoustic.

Unfortunately, I never play it anymore, but it looks nice.

[BBGuitar]

I would be happy to swap even, my 1968 ES-175D for an acoustic 1949 L4.

[icr]

I bought a cracked, re-fretted and re-finished 1948 L7; cheapest I could find on the internet, to cut a hole for a pickup.
The guitar came with flat-wounds and a ribbon pickup under the bridge. Sound-wise it was a real dud.
In the end I fitted a replica McCarty and round-wounds. It has a killer tone and I'm glad I preserved the integrity of the carved top:

[Hammertone]

"Hand-carved" is an interesting term. Gibson carved top and back plates were cut by a machine, with a bit of follow-up hand-sanding and scraping.

[icr]

Thanks for the correction! The "hands" deliver it to the machine

[Hammertone]

Sometime between the end of WWII and the 1970s, the "hand-graduating" part mostly got dropped.