P90 Pickups for Jazz

**Retroman1969** · 06-07-2012, 08:07 PM

Well it certainly gets more involved the further you go along it seems.
From what I've heard and read about so far, I'd probably go Lollar P90s with Alnico II magnets, with CTS 250K pots and oil-in-paper cap (the higher the value the more mellow the sound, right...? I've never gotten a handle on how that works).

Many thanks for the additional info!

Part of me is really anxious to try this mod.... The other part just wants to drop in a Gibson Classic '57 and be done with it! LOL!

**SamBooka** · 06-08-2012, 09:11 AM

Sounds good.. I have ethical issues with people using PIO caps (the oil is extracted from snakes if you know what I mean

Being the old gloomy gus that I am (and this is the internet so no one can stop me)

I would normally say: Buy .01, .022, .033, .047 and .1 microfarad caps since they are 85cents each and find which works best for you (I am a fan of .01 myself but I am a minority) BUT since you are going PIO they are usually NOT 85c each. ALSO changing caps/pots on a guitar without a back/front plate is a PITA.

With tone controls I usually explain it like this: A tone control rolls off the frequencies above a certain point. The pot controls how much of those frequencies are removed. The value of the cap controls above what frequency the signal is removed. Small caps only remove the high high frequencies, a bigger caps more of the high mids.. even bigger starts getting into removing the mids.

Done..

**NSJ** · 06-08-2012, 09:28 AM

The best ones were always the ORIGINAL ones

Carved with nothing cut in the wood--DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1100
laminate -cut into the wood--Charlie Christians

I would check out facsimiles thereof -Statler pickups for the RC 1100 and Jason Lollar for the CC (I have the CC Lollars on my ES 339 and Tele and they are amazing, clear and articulate--!)

**Retroman1969** · 06-08-2012, 10:42 AM

LOL, I get what you're saying. I could just as happily go either way as long as it filters the highs and high-mids enough. I'm just trying to avoid brittle, shrill tones.
Thanks for explaining how the cap value works, and that will help.
I'll likely let my luthier do this work since I'm terrible with a soldering gun.

I had thought seriously about a CC, but I still have reservations about it. (string balance, brittle highs, etc.) I wish I had the time and money to swap out and try several options.

**Al Br.** · 03-30-2016, 08:14 AM

What is the allure for single coil pups versus the rest? Is there a sound quality about them that makes them preferable to a dual coil? Bored and curious and seeing all the new models that are featured with either raises the question. I had a set of single coils on my 68 Melody Maker and changed them out to duals. At the time the singles carried little or no sustain or punch. Sorry, that was rock and roll. Trying out a used Epi with a one coil left me un-impressed.
So what is the consensus?

**GNAPPI** · 03-30-2016, 08:19 AM

I personally do not see p90's as useful in a primary guitar, but as a second guitar definitely yes.

**robertm2000** · 03-30-2016, 08:46 AM

The thickness of the sound is what turns me off about humbuckers. I don't like the "playing through a towel" sound that some jazz guitarists favor. A lean, balanced sound is my favorite and single coils give me what audio enthusiasts call "full-range" sound. P90s have a fuller sound than Strat pickups but they are still thinner sounding than humbuckers. Every electric guitar I have (three of them) uses single coil pickups.

**old tube** · 03-30-2016, 09:00 AM

I've got archtops with Humbuckers, P90's, Charlie Christian, and even one with Fender style single coils. They all generate really useful tones for the right circumstances.

Also some Amps just seem to sound better / right with a certain genre of pickup. Fender Tweed and P90's is a favourite of mine.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-30-2016, 09:00 AM

Ah, the playing through a towel thing is overblown...how many jazz guitar players actually use that dark of a tone? Well known cats, I mean...two? three?

You can certainly get brighter tones with humbuckers too, but it's a different kind of sound.

**jorgemg1984** · 03-30-2016, 10:08 AM

I like P90s clarity but I don't like the sharpness of the transients / attack.. There are ways of making an humbucker clear and that way you get clarity with a soft attack (and no noise).

**Boston Joe** · 03-30-2016, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Ah, the playing through a towel thing is overblown...how many jazz guitar players actually use that dark of a tone? Well known cats, I mean...two? three?

You can certainly get brighter tones with humbuckers too, but it's a different kind of sound.

Martino for sure. Last time I saw him, his tone was so dark, I almost couldn't hear the guitar.

**pubylakeg** · 03-30-2016, 12:16 PM

All jazz guitar recordings made before 1957 are played on single coil p/ups. That's a pretty significant reference point in evaluating guitar tone.

H/buckers and P90s have their own merits, but they are different.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-30-2016, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by NoReply

I prefer P90's and single coils more these days the clarity and attack. Listen to early Wes and Kenny Burrell the clear tone that cuts thru the mix. Even in humbuckers I prefer the vintage wound that aren't as dark.

If you know how to EQ your guitar so it occupies it's own place in the mix, there's no need to "cut through."

This is the curse of guitar players who want to use the same tone that sounds good in their living room alone on a gig with people.

I DO find it interesting though that so many people chase these early tones...and buy guitars with humbuckers...

But then again, I see people all the time chasing the sound of a 175 and buying a carved top Eastman.

**Boston Joe** · 03-30-2016, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If you know how to EQ your guitar so it occupies it's own place in the mix, there's no need to "cut through."

This is the curse of guitar players who want to use the same tone that sounds good in their living room alone on a gig with people.

Hell yes! Way too many people don't understand this. (How many rock players have I played with that turn the overdrive all the way up, and scoop the hell out of the mids? I know that makes you sound like a metal god at home, dude, but in a band, you're sucking up all the space!)

**rabbit** · 03-30-2016, 02:18 PM

I am a student, so please clarify for me:

do I control the quality of the attack by choice of pickup or with my hands?

**mr. beaumont** · 03-30-2016, 02:32 PM

Everything goes into it, really.

Pickups have "characteristics," not a set "sound," which is why if you and me were to play the same guitar through the same amp, it'd sound different.

**Gilpy** · 03-30-2016, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Al Br.

What is the allure for single coil pups versus the rest? Is there a sound quality about them that makes them preferable to a dual coil? Bored and curious and seeing all the new models that are featured with either raises the question. I had a set of single coils on my 68 Melody Maker and changed them out to duals. At the time the singles carried little or no sustain or punch. Sorry, that was rock and roll. Trying out a used Epi with a one coil left me un-impressed.
So what is the consensus?

Well, Melody Maker pickups could give you a bad impression of what single coils are like.
A good p-90 is capable of all the bass response, punch and sustain that a humbucker has, with additional detail on the high end. But, like humbuckers, they vary a lot. I've had good luck with Lollars, Fralins, and the humbucker-sized Duncan Phat Cat.
I have a '52 Les Paul with p-90s that gets killer traditional jazz tones.

**Cunamara** · 03-30-2016, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I like P90s clarity but I don't like the sharpness of the transients / attack.. There are ways of making an humbucker clear and that way you get clarity with a soft attack (and no noise).

Well, Jim Hall used a P90 in his ES-175 for a decade or so. He got a beautiful dark, soft tone with little to no muddiness on those recordings with Art Farmer, Sonny Rollins, Jimmy Giuffre. It is my benchmark jazz guitar sound.

**neatomic** · 03-30-2016, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Well, Jim Hall used a P90 in his ES-175 for a decade or so. He got a beautiful dark, soft tone with little to no muddiness on those recordings with Art Farmer, Sonny Rollins, Jimmy Giuffre. It is my benchmark jazz guitar sound.

in complete agreement!..and he used a gibson ga-50 amp..not really the brightest amp ever! haha...single neck p-90 goes a long way..wish more current guitar makers offered that spec

cheers

**mad dog** · 03-30-2016, 09:10 PM

The single coil bag is many different things, not one characteristic sound. P90s differ pretty dramatically from my favorite tele single coil p/us for example. And there are several flavors even of P90s ... staple p/us, P13s, low wind and hotter P90s.

P-90s strike me as somewhere between singles like strat/tele p/us and humbuckers. Not all that much like either. Though of course you get the single coil hum, inherent in the design.

They're all so good, I can't do without any of the above. The four guitars I use most for jazz practice are one hollowbody with humbuckers, one with P90s, one with P13s, plus a tele with P90s.
MD

**Greentone** · 03-30-2016, 11:36 PM

FWIW, I always liked the ES 175, ES 350, and L 5 better with P90 pickups. They just exude that 50s tone.

**cosmic gumbo** · 03-31-2016, 12:31 AM

I've found single coils make it easier for me to dial in a warm sound and still be able to get good use and tone out of my low E and A string without it being too muddy or overloading a tube amp so it distorts when I need to be loud and stay clean....out in real world playing situations.

joaopaz · 01-29-2017, 02:12 PM

Hi guys,

I have an Ibanez AFJ95. I like the guitar a lot, perhaps the easiest guitar I ever played.

The sound is nice but a bit uncharacteristic so I'd like to try something different on this guitar - a P90 perhaps... something that would get me close (pickup wise) to early Jim Hall, dark, warm, short decay.

I'm very aware that tone is a lot more than a mere pickup change so no need to go there

My question is,
any P90 that you would recommend and that would come in humbucker form for a quick replacement?

Thanks!