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I played an ES-175D for about 40 years before I bought the 165. Then I played the 165 on hundreds of gigs for about 5 years. I felt that the 165 sounded very similar to my vintage 175’s. It is basically the same guitar, with one less pickup. A great gigging guitar.
Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
Keith
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11-23-2020 10:32 PM
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And that's a splendid guitar, way more than you pay for it. I put a Seymour Duncan Phat Cat in mine and wow, it's a favorite. Feels like the VOS ES175 as to weight (but the body is mahogany). It's a lot of guitar for the money. Originally Posted by neatomic
even the epi zephyr regent, which a few years ago was around the 500$ mark, is now being listed for around 1k$ and more!!
cheers
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There's one for sale at Larkstreetmusic.com
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My very first 'real' archtop was a 90's, heritage cherry ES-165 Herb Ellis. It belonged to a good friend who sold it to me for about a grand, what I thought was a small fortune. That ES-165 could cop every jazz tone I ever had in my head up to that time, and plenty of that illusive 'thunk'.
The 165 is long gone, but I missed it. When a deal came along recently on an '89 ES-175 Mahogany back, I jumped at the chance to own another simple laminate jazz box. Tonally it sounds close to that old red 165, but better, more refined. Each guitar is different, even close cousins like these two. These are two fairly basic, laminate archtops that do what they are intended...sound great amplified with minimal frills. Perfect!
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I've only come across three and the other two had black finishes. I bought my 165 from fine Swedish jazz guitarist, Gustav Lundgren just over ten years ago. I spotted it on his website and secretly hoped that one day he'd sell the instrument. Incredibly, a few weeks later it came up for sale on another forum and I jumped in immediately! Even in this roughly recorded and unrehearsed live clip with my trio and a friend sitting in on vocals, you can hear how nice the guitar sounds: Originally Posted by uriah
Last edited by PMB; 11-24-2020 at 04:43 PM.
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that was some fine playing Originally Posted by PMB
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Thanks Holger, always dig your clips as well. I'm lucky to work with such great players. Originally Posted by djg
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Re ES165 necks: ive had two and played a few others, necks seem to vary a bit. I cant be totally accurate but can say my 1st 1991 was fatter chunkier but comfortable. Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
The 165 i have now is 2000 the neck is definitely thinner, not super thin but really comfortable................. it feels like it was made for me
Eg necks can be slimmer/ish but sometimes radius too flat or too round. Two Eastman AR371 i had were thinnish at nut and 12F area but slightly wider across say 57mm as oppessed to 53mm. I did not like them very much at all, yes initial appeal which did not last.
not just a case of thin or thick. these parameters all drop into place once you had/played a guitar for some time.
DB imo these can produce the "Thunk" which is not what some may think being merely dark/middy etc , a guitar can be dark or not bright but not have Thunk, i have heard ( not many) older players with 175 with a brighter tone and thunk, with older Gibsons and obviously older amps.
you know exactly what the THUNK is. i have you playing many times with it.
Bottom line you wont be disappointed with anES165 forget patterned headstock, an Uncluttered ES175 acoustically louder &one pup.
Even the thickest neck ES165 is not uncomfortable, i cant really put into words they just fit. I hope this helps,
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I sold my original ES-165 a few years back for something like $1400 or $1500, I think. I listed here for a while with no takers and then sold it on Reverb within a few days to a very satisfied buyer. I liked it but don’t really miss it and at the time I was exploring Hofners and other guitars, trying to figure out what I wanted. Yes, the HE was solid. I learned set-up with this guitar and it was definitely put together to last. I always thought it felt heavy and not responsive acoustically, which has largely put me off exploring the 175 style again. Seeing how prices are going, I might be fortunate to be one of the few not lusting for one, but then every guitar I actually want seems to be expensive too!
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My 1996 has the single humbucker in the top, and sounds great!
I also have a vintage 1961 ES-175, and they play & sound very similar.
The 165 is top quality in every regard, the neck is very straight, great nitro finish, gold appointments, etc.
Ziggy tailpiece shows No instability.
criticisms of the guitar seem like cynical malarkey IMHO.
Cheers, JT
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Here’s a video example on the 165, my rendition of Slow Boat.
cheers, JT
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FWIW I used to own a 92 ES-165 with the top mounted full sized humbucker and it featured a 50s Gibson profile neck.
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I just got a 2003 Herb Ellis, ES 165 with the BJB floater.
Initial impression was it is a very good looking guitar with the flamed maple body. The waviness of the flames is visible in the finish, and it is not perfectly level, but to do so would mean tons of clear lacquer, so I'm fine with it as is. One minor flaw in the side/top edge binding where it meets the cutaway binding; the black ply of the binding disappears into the black sunburst shading of the top. Not sure if that is because the binding groove was too deep, or they just did not scrape all the paint off the white edge of the binding. No matter, it looks great as it is almost indistinguishable.
Acoustically, it is louder and has more treble than my 1989 ES-175D, but here is a slight buzz that I can hear when playing certain notes; turns out moving the shielded cable from the pot to the jack away from where it was touching the treble side brace inside resolved that. No matter, because you would never hear that buzz when plugged into an amp. And, the accoustic sound is also a no count because that is not how this guitar is made for playing. Action and play ability is great, typical Gibson. Neck and heel are beefier than my '89 ES-175D, however, it is still very comfortable to play, and not an impediment in any way, just a little different; you instantly adjust and never think about it again.
Plugged in to my '65 Deluxe Reverb, this Herb Ellis has a really good jazz sound, I like it better than my'89 ES-175D for that matter. It is richer, more woody and really accentuates that jazz tone we all know and love. It's like you are picking the notes up by the end of the neck; that warm soft smooth well defined and focused sound we so associate with Jazz guitarists of fame. And this is with round wound .11 strings, nothing special. I'll have to throw a set of TI swing series flat wounds on it and re-eveluate, but I'm sure it will only be even better, as that is what TIs do for every jazz guitar I have put them on. I only use the neck PU on my ES-175, which are the Patent No. Shaw types as supplied on these guitars. I like the BJB's sound on the Herb Ellis better, but that is very subjective; it just says "jazz" in a more convincing way to my ears.
The Zig-Zag tail piece is original, and it came with a spare, apparently the original owner was aware of it being a problem and bough an extra one "just in case".
For those who complain about the volume knob position on the pick guard, it is probably because your strumming style hits the knob and drops your volume: Most jazz players have their right hand well forward near the pick-up so in that position, you will not hit the knob; it's just a matter of refining your technique.(rock your wrist instead of your elbow when strumming) BTW, that will also result in a more Jazz-like tone. As they say, its in the fingers.
Very few downsides to this guitar when used as intended; a Jazz box. Aesthetically, as mentioned, more careful attention to sanding the maple veneer, would have eliminated the waviness in the clear finish, and as a matter of personal taste, I prefer chrome hardware. The gold plating is very nice but it eventually wears away and will look ratty with playing and time. All that would bother me if this was a wall hanger/ object d'atre, but for me, it is all about how it plays and sounds. The Herb Ellis has supplanted my ES-175D as my go-to jazz box.
Jay
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I found mine had a bit of a buzz on the G string, if it was plucked hard, when playing acoustically. Touching the bridge seemed to stop that, but not always. I put sleeving on the ABR-1 wire but it had no affect. Checked the nut and saddles for proper notching, and they were fine. Finally, I removed the pick guard and found the mount for the side support had come loose. I also notice the pickup was really far away from the bass side strings. Re-glued the plastic mount for the side support to the bottom of the pick guard, and cut new support posts to get the pick guard to mount correctly, as the originals were too short. This was why the support mount broke as the pick guard was being flexed excessively. Now the pick up is evenly spaced under the strings and along with the pick guard, it no longer moves around. I used a birch wood dowel, that I drilled hollow, and sleeved it with black heat shrink tubing to male the two new supports, much nicer than the plastic tubing. My ES-175 does not suffer from these issues, as the humbuckers are mounted in the top.
Bonus is that the Herb Ellis is now more feedback resistant and I can play facing my amp at moderate volume with no squeaks or howling.
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That’s a beautiful guitar. Perfect as far as I’m concerned. Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb
My 1996 has the single humbucker in the top, and sounds great!
I also have a vintage 1961 ES-175, and they play & sound very similar.
The 165 is top quality in every regard, the neck is very straight, great nitro finish, gold appointments, etc.
Ziggy tailpiece shows No instability.
criticisms of the guitar seem like cynical malarkey IMHO.
Cheers, JT
JD
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Hello colleagues,
Glad I found this jazz guitar group.
I have a 2001 Gibson Herb Ellis that I purchased brand new in 2002, buy I have never been happy with its sound, though it feels really comfortable to play.
I am looking for a "woodier" Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, George Benson kind of sound, but I find its trebles (specially the 1st string) way too thin compared to the rest, like it is another guitar, the sound is not "balanced" even when rolling back the tone, which the darkens the rest too much. I use flatwound 12 and play with Dunlop 207, I switched the tuneomatic bridge for a wooden one, but still nothing.
Could it be its 490r pickup? At this point I am not sure if I should try a 57 Classic, a 57 Classic Plus, something other pick up, or even if I should get rid of the guitar for good and look for something else. Feeling frustrated. ?
Please advise. Thank you in advance.
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Hard to say. Could be the amp. Could be the pickup height. I would recommend changing the EQ settings on the amp and the pickup height before spending any money. Raising the pickup may help, lowering it probably not. You didn't say what amp you're using. Another cheap thing to try is different picks. I find picks make more of a difference in tone than almost anything else.
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I have two of the set-in pickups ES-165s, a '91 and a '92. The latter is earmarked for a Lollar bucker-size P90 I have in a drawer. The 490 series pickups were immediate precursors to the '57 Classic and the sonic differences between them are minor. Some people hear the 490r/t as having a bit more mids. The '91 165 has been with me since I bought it new in early 1992. I've never had any urge to change it out for another humbucker, nor do I hear it as you do. I also have a 1990 ES-335 I bought new then, with the 490 set that works for me. But I'm a fingerstyle player and find it easy to regulate picking force on the 1st & 2nd strings. You can also turn the pole pieces on those two stings down a bit or adjust the pickup height accordingly. If a pickup change must be done, I think you can find an alternative that can address your problem more pointedly than the slight change to '57 Classic.
But I have to ask, do you mean "thin" as in bright, or "thin" as in the B and E strings lack tonal body when struck, compared to all the wound strings?
If the latter, you can try using 1st and 2nd strings from a thicker-gauge set, one or two steps up from your 12s. Another thing that might help you is to put nylon saddles on the bridge, under just the B and high-E strings.
What's your amp and can you use amp EQ to address the 1st/2nd strings problem with more precision than the guitar's simple tone pot allows?
Phil
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All of this and try a heavier string on top. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Welcome! What amplifier are you using? Have you played it through any others & if yes, was the sound still unsatisfying to you? Originally Posted by Cimarron
The 490 is a bright pickup that sounds to me like it's oriented toward rock players. I've always wondered why Gibson put them in 165s. Then again, Ibanez put a DiMarzio Blaze in the AF207 (a fully hollow 7 string archtop), which makes as little sense to me. Sometimes big companies do odd things for expedience or economy.
I agree that you shouldn't spend $ and change the pickup before trying strings, picks, adjustments etc. You could also darken the tone a bit with a bigger tone capacitor in the guitar. If the volume pot is a 500k, you can switch it to a 300 or a 250 - the higher the value, the brighter the tone. But before even doing that, try a very long cheap guitar cable. The high capacitance will darken your tone.
Let us know what you do and how it worked.
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Welcome! Originally Posted by Cimarron
If it is only one string that sounds weird and other five sound good I guess it is not good idea to change pickups, pots etc that makes the other strings sound different.
How about the pole screw under the 1st string? Turn it some turns down, does it affect the sound?
Sometimes Gibson – and other guitar makers – have the pickup or the bridge a bit off the line, so the strings don't go just over the pickup pole screws. With a wooden bridge You can fine tune this by making a new slot in it to the direction that might be better.
Good luck with the quest!
(Pics could help!)
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I didn't mention polepiece adjustment, because it's obvious to me, but perhaps not for others. On almost every pickup I've ever used, I set the e and g polelpieces way up high, and the b down into the pickup. The others are set to whatever the strings demand for even volume. Raising the e polepiece does make a definite difference in both the volume and the tone. It's quick and easy to try, and entirely reversible. The object is to get the volume to the same level for all the strings, or at least the perceived volume.
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I spent years fretting about thin notes high up on the E string. Most guitars, but not all. My 2009 D'Angelico EXDC didn't have the problem, although seems to have developed it after a few years.
That led me to assume that something changed in the setup or frets. Meticulous fretwork by an expert didn't change it. I fiddled with every setup variable, but couldn't change it on any guitar.
Eventually, I think perhaps from a comment on this forum, I came to accept that there was nothing wrong with the guitars -- they just sound like that if you have the treble dialed up too high. If I rolled it off, the problematic thin sound disappeared. At that point, I found the sweet spot and stopped worrying.
Exception: putting on a new E string would help a bit. Increasing the gauge did not help much. No amount of fiddling with pickup height and polepieces gave me a good result.
The DV Mark Little Jazz helped too. It sounds like it's set up for a darker sound (as is the EXDC -- and I never figured out what changed). The darker sound makes the high E sound better.
Anyway, others have provided excellent suggestions about things to try. This post is about considering the possibility that there isn't anything wrong with the guitar that can be "fixed".Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 05-10-2025 at 11:49 AM.
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I've had a few guitars over the years that were like that. Sometimes pickup adjustment worked, sometimes not. I fixed these issues permanently by selling the instruments. Problem solved.
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I guess that many jazz players recognize the problem of thin sound of the thin B & E strings. That's why many use thick strings or even change the B & E strings to a thicker gauge.
For me one decisive idea (after all the twiddlig with my guitars) was to turn up the amps middle knob. Suddenly the one note lines on these two strings started to get some weight.
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