Treble bleed circuit

[Little Jay]

To me, the volume and tone knobs are quite important and I use them a lot. But I find the way they operate to be quite different from guitar to guitar. My two favourites are my ES-125 and my Gibson ES-333. The 125 has 50ies wiring (and volume and tone are quite interactive but in a goid way) and the 333 had the ‘modern’ wiring.

Now my point: I have been building my own wiring circuits lately for several guitars and although I use the Gibson values and circuits, for some reason the pots never had the same operation and gradual response as the in the 125 and the 333, to my frustration.... For some reason the guitars I worked on sounded (too) dark and indirect with volume down, and the workable range was only the last 20% of the travel of the pot (regardless of 50ies or modern wiring) and tone change mostly took place already in the first 20% of the tone pots’ travel. This happens with both Alpha and (Taiwanese?) CTS pots and could not be solved with switching from lin to log or vice versa. I don’t really get why actually but since this is the case with 4 guitars I changed the wiring in, it doesn’t seem like something accidental. Maybe it’s the reason why they sell ‘vintage taper pots’? (Never tried those btw.)

But I found the solution it seems! In my newest ES-330/Casino built with P90s I installed a 50ies wiring with all 500K log pots and .022uf caps.... but I had the same symptoms as described above! So last night I installed a treble bleed circuit on the volume pots: a 1000pf cap in parallel with a 100k resistor across the volume pots terminal. And voila! Bingo! A nice and gradual decrease in volume over the entire travel of the pots. Tonepots also work nice and gradual over their entire range! Me happy!

Just thought I’d share it here ;-)

[KirkP]

I don’t think I’d want much treble bleed, but I’ve thought of adding the resister to even out the taper on one of my guitars. I think some manufacturers have better audio tapers than others. Here’s an article with sketch for anyone who is confused by the description.
The Fabulous Four: Mods for your Strat, Tele, Les Paul, and "Super Strat" | Premier Guitar

[neatomic]

not a treble bleed fan...i like the idea that when i roll back my volume control some hi-end/treble goes with it!!..that's the jazz tone!!

cheers

[Little Jay]

not a treble bleed fan...i like the idea that when i roll back my volume control some hi-end/treble goes with it!!..that's the jazz tone!!

cheers

I am with you, I like the volume and tone controls in my 1950 ES-125 and 2003 ES-333 just the way they are, without treble bleeds. But (some?) modern pots seem to need a treble bleed to operate in the same fashion as on these guitars. I can’t entirely grasp why.....

[Sam Sherry]

But (some?) modern pots seem to need a treble bleed to operate in the same fashion as on these guitars. I can’t entirely grasp why.....

This may be your answer, maestro

[Little Jay]

This may be your answer, maestro

Ha! So it’s the old gospel: things ain’t what they used to be!

Thanks for the informative read!

[KirkP]

This may be your answer, maestro

That gearpage thread had a link to the CTS pot spec from the mouser site. CTS offers several tapers. A true log taper is expensive to manufacture, so all are approximations and the designer needs to know what will be best for their application and specify that taper. E.g., the preferred taper for a volume control on a guitar might be different from what one would choose for an amplifier. And guitar players who usually play with the guitar’s volume control set high (like many rock players) might prefer a different taper than those who like to keep the volume pot rolled back (like many jazz players). I’m in the latter camp, but I’m not sure which of the following tapers would work best for me.


Stewmac says they spec the best CTS audio taper for guitars, with a tight tolerance. I wonder which taper type they use.
CTS Control Pots | stewmac.com

[Little Jay]

I installed a Stewmac Les Paul wiring kit with CTS pots in my ES-175 copy but I don’t like them at all! All the action happens in the first 10-20% of the turn! (Or in the last 10-20%, depending how you look at it... I meant from full to zero volume happens very quickly. If volume is off, only in the last bit of the travel the volume comes up.)

Would not buy that again.....

[sgosnell]

I'm in a different camp than Neatomic. I don't want my volume pot to change the tone at all. That's why I have a tone control. If you use the volume to control the tone, why bother with a tone pot? I wire my guitars differently than most, using the Benedetto method, and I like it. The tone is very close to the same regardless of the volume, and that's the way I want it. I've used treble bleed circuits in the past, before I learned how the circuit should really be wired, but I haven't needed one in a long time. There are multiple ways to skin that cat, and it's a matter of personal preference as to which is the best.

But my way is the best, and don't you forget it! :-p

[ruger9]

I have "treble bleeds" (actually high pass filters) on all my electric guitars. However, if I had a proper "jazz box" (I do not currently), I would not want one on that guitar. Here's why:

[jazzbow]

How about this .....


Twin set of bleed circuits..


Twin stacked Shaw 250/500k pots..


All in a G&L Tribute ASAT Bluesboy.

I've had this guitar for a couple of years, it was a balmy summers day in Southport and I was in Dads Guitars trailing any guitar with a G&L MFD pickup. I was immediately struck by how playable this was. Proper set up by the shop Luthier resulted in me buying it. This was the reason I stopped going to guitar shops.

At practice levels this was great but playing this through a Marshall stack the MFD bridge pickup howled like a stuck pig!
Apparently this happens a lot.
So off it came and dipped in wax . Now it's less microphonic. Haven't tried with a Marshall stack but at least using the pickup selected doesn't sound like a slammed door through the amp.

Playing it after this and I wasn't satisfied with the muddy humbucker and then ice pick highs of the single coil when adjusting the pots and then flipping to the other pickup.

So eventually tracked down 2 Shaw stacked pots in Germany and in they went.
The treble bleed circuit was insurance in case the tonal imbalance returns.
What can I say! The perfect set up for all musical modal musings mate!
Any combination of volume and tone, pickup and crunchy amp and this guitar sings.
A definite Jazzbow recommends...

Now it has elevated itself to primary guitar above the Jazz Tele and Mascis Jazzmaster.

It's known as the Boss.

Have fun, wash yer hauns, wearah mask and keep yer dis-taunce.
Over and out from the bunker...

[Little Jay]

How about this .....


Twin set of bleed circuits..


Twin stacked Shaw 250/500k pots..


All in a G&L Tribute ASAT Bluesboy.

I've had this guitar for a couple of years, it was a balmy summers day in Southport and I was in Dads Guitars trailing any guitar with a G&L MFD pickup. I was immediately struck by how playable this was. Proper set up by the shop Luthier resulted in me buying it. This was the reason I stopped going to guitar shops.

At practice levels this was great but playing this through a Marshall stack the MFD bridge pickup howled like a stuck pig!
Apparently this happens a lot.
So off it came and dipped in wax . Now it's less microphonic. Haven't tried with a Marshall stack but at least using the pickup selected doesn't sound like a slammed door through the amp.

Playing it after this and I wasn't satisfied with the muddy humbucker and then ice pick highs of the single coil when adjusting the pots and then flipping to the other pickup.

So eventually tracked down 2 Shaw stacked pots in Germany and in they went.
The treble bleed circuit was insurance in case the tonal imbalance returns.
What can I say! The perfect set up for all musical modal musings mate!
Any combination of volume and tone, pickup and crunchy amp and this guitar sings.
A definite Jazzbow recommends...

Now it has elevated itself to primary guitar above the Jazz Tele and Mascis Jazzmaster.

It's known as the Boss.

Have fun, wash yer hauns, wearah mask and keep yer dis-taunce.
Over and out from the bunker...

Wow Jazzbow, you took that to another level! What do the double pots do? Seperate volume and tone for every pickup, like a Gibson configuration?

[jazzbow]

Wow Jazzbow, you took that to another level! What do the double pots do? Seperate volume and tone for every pickup, like a Gibson configuration?

Not quite EL Jay.

And thanks.

One part of the stacked pot is 250k and the other is 500k. I think the top half is 250 and the bottom part is 500., I checked with a multimeter before wiring up to make sure as I couldn't find any markings.
So the humbucker is wired directly to the 500k part of both pots for volume and tone and then the single coil is wired directly to the 250k part.
Then a jumper lead to the selector switch from the output of both volume pots and then the switch output directly to the Jack socket.
Tim Shaw invented these pots for Fender Strats with humbucker in the bridge position, they're hard to find as they sell out quickly.
I spent an evening drawing diagrams to ensure it was right then figuring out the sequence of what to solder first as its fiddly as muck.
I did originally wire the tone to the volume output but it was uninspiring.

This pot is the perfect for mixing single coils and humbuckers (or P90's) without compromising output, an elegant solution.
It really does work.

Much fun and felicitations to you and yours.

Keep clean, keep it covered and keep back