Kenny Burrell Sound, Heritage or Gibson?

[tomvwash]

His sound is more captivating than ever these days, no wonder the following never quits. Does anyone have suggestions on the guitar of choice here? Heritage Super Eagle? Gibson Super 400 (hard on the wallet)? Heritage SKB? None of the above? Other?

Thank you,

Tom

[Herbie]

Burrell’s career is so long and has so many a bit different sounds that I have to ask which Kenny Burrell? ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, ’80s or so?

I guess that earlier his tools were different Gibson guitars & Fender amps and later Heritage guitar & amp.

[tomvwash]

Burrell’s career is so long and has so many a bit different sounds that I have to ask which Kenny Burrell? ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, ’80s or so?

I guess that earlier his tools were different Gibson guitars & Fender amps and later Heritage guitar & amp.

Good question. I'm not sure and need to do more listening. Yes, what a long career. Maybe 50's-60's? Not sure if his career is defined by a "peak."

[Herbie]

Here is some info:

”Burrell has used Gibsons for the majority of his career. Early on it was the ES-175 (with the Charlie Christian bar pickup) as well as the L-7 and L-5 models. But the guitar he is most associated with is the Gibson Super 400. He also has a signature model built by Heritage that is essentially a Super 400 model. Most of his 1950s recordings were done with his Fender Deluxe amp. (Also known as the Tweed Deluxe or 5E3.) This amp has distinctly musical overdrive and compression characteristics and emphasizes mid range frequencies.

He would later favour the Fender Twin Reverb. The scooped mids of the blackface Fenders contrast with the Tweed amps, and Burrell states his tone preferences in this quote: “I like a fat warm sound, so I set the treble lower, the bass medium, and I pump up the middle.””

Kenny Burrell (1931-)

[GTRMan]

He's still playing?

[gitman]

I am fortunate to have both an early 60's Super-400 CES and a 90's Super Eagle at hand to compare. :
The Gibson has a tunomatic bridge on a rosewood base, the Heritage an ebony bridge. Original PAF's in the former, Kent Armstrong PAF (neck) and Seth Lover (bridge) in the latter. Both are set up with medium D'Addario halfround strings, an 013 and 018 for the E and B strings.
The Super has a plywood back, the Eagle a solid maple back. Unplugged the Gibson is quieter with less overtones, plugged in both have appr. the same output. The Gibson's amplified sound is also somewhat more mellow but with great punch, good sustain and an even balance all across the range. No dead spots, no particular sweet spot either. The Eagle has a bit more cut in a group setting, the dynamic range is somewhat more pronounced but since the rims are more shallow than on the Super (7,65 cm / 8,4 cm) the lows are a bit reduced.
For the listener in the room these differences will mostly disappear and with some tuning, set-up and maybe a pickup-swap you could reduce these differences considerably. Re playing feel the Gibson weighs a bit more and the deeper body might make it less comfy for a slighter player. OTOH look and listen to the young George Benson at Newport where he burns on his Super along with Lonnie Smith - he doesn't look uncomfortable at all, despite the large box on his lap....
Re Kenny's sound in the later years (90's and on) : I don't think it's so much the difference between these two guitars but more his choice of amp, his attack, the rooms, etc. My personal favorite is still the sound he got with his D'Angelico / DeArmond 1100 pickup into some small-ish
Fender (or Ampeg ?) combo. It retains a bit more of the acoustic quality of the guitar while still having the glow and punch of a magnetic (single coil) pickup. Personal preference only - for my gigs not suitable due to the low feedback threshold. With the other two this is not an issue, both perform extremely well even with a more heavy handed drummer and several horns in the band, or a Hammond organ....
Examples :
- D'Angelico :

(at 23 minutes)
- Super-400 :

- Heritage :

[Robertito]

Plywood back? I've never heard of that before. Was that a Gibson thing in the '60s?

[gitman]

Plywood back? I've never heard of that before. Was that a Gibson thing in the '60s?

Yes, it has been my experience with several L5 CES + Super-400 CES models I have owned - all of them built between 1962 and 1968.
The well known expert on the Super-400 and author of the book "The Gibson Super-400, Art of the Fine Guitar" - Thomas van Hoose -
provides all specs and facts in said book.

[Gabor]

Burrell sounds extreme well even a flattop circle hole acoustic, there are many live youtube videos are out there. So I am going for his incredible hand and taste...

[Robertito]

Yes, it has been my experience with several L5 CES + Super-400 CES models I have owned - all of them built between 1962 and 1968.
The well known expert on the Super-400 and author of the book "The Gibson Super-400, Art of the Fine Guitar" - Thomas van Hoose -
provides all specs and facts in said book.

Fascinating, thank you!

[jads57]

Plywood back was to cut down on feedback issues,I believe. Wes Montgomery played a Florentine L-5ces with a plywood back as well!

[2bornot2bop]

A Super 400 has over 3.5” in depth and a thick top. A Super Eagle has 3” of depth and a thin top. I’ve owned each. They’re entirely different guitars.

[DRS]

He's still playing?

I don't think he is healthy enough to play these days. Kenny has health issues and seems to have other problems. There was a big controversy last year around his health and a Gofundme campaign for medical expenses. There was a thread here. Sad that such a legend would be embroiled in controversy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/enter...4ad_story.html

[sgcim]

I am fortunate to have both an early 60's Super-400 CES and a 90's Super Eagle at hand to compare. :
The Gibson has a tunomatic bridge on a rosewood base, the Heritage an ebony bridge. Original PAF's in the former, Kent Armstrong PAF (neck) and Seth Lover (bridge) in the latter. Both are set up with medium D'Addario halfround strings, an 013 and 018 for the E and B strings.
The Super has a plywood back, the Eagle a solid maple back. Unplugged the Gibson is quieter with less overtones, plugged in both have appr. the same output. The Gibson's amplified sound is also somewhat more mellow but with great punch, good sustain and an even balance all across the range. No dead spots, no particular sweet spot either. The Eagle has a bit more cut in a group setting, the dynamic range is somewhat more pronounced but since the rims are more shallow than on the Super (7,65 cm / 8,4 cm) the lows are a bit reduced.
For the listener in the room these differences will mostly disappear and with some tuning, set-up and maybe a pickup-swap you could reduce these differences considerably. Re playing feel the Gibson weighs a bit more and the deeper body might make it less comfy for a slighter player. OTOH look and listen to the young George Benson at Newport where he burns on his Super along with Lonnie Smith - he doesn't look uncomfortable at all, despite the large box on his lap....
Re Kenny's sound in the later years (90's and on) : I don't think it's so much the difference between these two guitars but more his choice of amp, his attack, the rooms, etc. My personal favorite is still the sound he got with his D'Angelico / DeArmond 1100 pickup into some small-ish
Fender (or Ampeg ?) combo. It retains a bit more of the acoustic quality of the guitar while still having the glow and punch of a magnetic (single coil) pickup. Personal preference only - for my gigs not suitable due to the low feedback threshold. With the other two this is not an issue, both perform extremely well even with a more heavy handed drummer and several horns in the band, or a Hammond organ....
Examples :
- D'Angelico :

(at 23 minutes)
- Super-400 :

- Heritage :

I agree with gitman on the D'A with the Dearmond 1100. I didn't even have to look at the video to be able to distinguish the full, round, warm, mellow sound of KB's D'A from the thin, twangy sound of the other two players. It even records better than the Gibbies and Heritage that KB used. The best example being KB's "Night Song" on Verve. I was lucky enough to hear KB use his D'A live on a number of live gigs, including the huge Felt Forum, where his D'A filled filled up that big hall so well, I felt like I was sitting right in front of him, rather than the upper level, where I actually was.

[neatomic]

kenny b at van gelders 1963


cheers

[tomvwash]

I am fortunate to have both an early 60's Super-400 CES and a 90's Super Eagle at hand to compare. :
The Gibson has a tunomatic bridge on a rosewood base, the Heritage an ebony bridge. Original PAF's in the former, Kent Armstrong PAF (neck) and Seth Lover (bridge) in the latter. Both are set up with medium D'Addario halfround strings, an 013 and 018 for the E and B strings.
The Super has a plywood back, the Eagle a solid maple back. Unplugged the Gibson is quieter with less overtones, plugged in both have appr. the same output. The Gibson's amplified sound is also somewhat more mellow but with great punch, good sustain and an even balance all across the range. No dead spots, no particular sweet spot either. The Eagle has a bit more cut in a group setting, the dynamic range is somewhat more pronounced but since the rims are more shallow than on the Super (7,65 cm / 8,4 cm) the lows are a bit reduced.
For the listener in the room these differences will mostly disappear and with some tuning, set-up and maybe a pickup-swap you could reduce these differences considerably. Re playing feel the Gibson weighs a bit more and the deeper body might make it less comfy for a slighter player. OTOH look and listen to the young George Benson at Newport where he burns on his Super along with Lonnie Smith - he doesn't look uncomfortable at all, despite the large box on his lap....
Re Kenny's sound in the later years (90's and on) : I don't think it's so much the difference between these two guitars but more his choice of amp, his attack, the rooms, etc. My personal favorite is still the sound he got with his D'Angelico / DeArmond 1100 pickup into some small-ish
Fender (or Ampeg ?) combo. It retains a bit more of the acoustic quality of the guitar while still having the glow and punch of a magnetic (single coil) pickup. Personal preference only - for my gigs not suitable due to the low feedback threshold. With the other two this is not an issue, both perform extremely well even with a more heavy handed drummer and several horns in the band, or a Hammond organ....
Examples :
- D'Angelico :

(at 23 minutes)
- Super-400 :

- Heritage :

Thank you for the detailed comparison. Yes, you are fortunate to own two!

[steve burchfield]

Thank you for the detailed comparison. Yes, you are fortunate to own two!

Jimmy Smith Live in Paris! with Gray Tate and Kenny Burrell was the first organ trio record I ever heard and he inspired my to learn jazz guitar.

[Danny W.]

Plywood back? I've never heard of that before. Was that a Gibson thing in the '60s?

Most, but not all, of the florentine (and some venetian) cutaway carved-tops that Gibson made in the '60's had laminated backs. Here's a photo of my '64 Super400CES, with a one-piece back, which indicates that it's laminated:



Here's my '66 Byrdland with a two-piece, solid wood back:



Danny W.

[wolflen]

Thank you for the detailed comparison. Yes, you are fortunate to own two!

we have to include how the sound of these guitars and amps were recorded studio v live
and the time period ..recording techniques changed ALOT between 1950 / 60 / 70

now this Jimmy Smith vid with Kenny just makes me wild..the interaction between the two at certain points is -to me anyway - the essence of jazz blues / guitar / organ trio
both musicians are throwing chord. and scale fragments with such ease and authority ..swing on steroids..

I remember hearing these two many years ago and wondered how do you learn to play like that..and 30 years later I can understand more of what they were doing but stlll far from
being able to play with that kind of "magic"

[gitman]

Thank you for the detailed comparison. Yes, you are fortunate to own two!

Well, I was fortunate until Covid 19 .... without enough gigs coming my/our way it's getting harder and harder to justify
this indulgence and the fact that the Heritage has been sitting in the "for sale" department for a couple of months now
makes me not very optimistic ....

[ronjazz]

Kenny Burrell sound = Kenny.

[tomvwash]

Kenny Burrell sound = Kenny.

Yes, but it helps to have the right guitar in one's hands, for starters. I don't think a Strat would cut it.

[gitman]

we have to include how the sound of these guitars and amps were recorded studio v live
and the time period ..recording techniques changed ALOT between 1950 / 60 / 70

now this Jimmy Smith vid with Kenny just makes me wild..the interaction between the two at certain points is -to me anyway - the essence of jazz blues / guitar / organ trio
both musicians are throwing chord. and scale fragments with such ease and authority ..swing on steroids..

I remember hearing these two many years ago and wondered how do you learn to play like that..and 30 years later I can understand more of what they were doing but stlll far from
being able to play with that kind of "magic"

That simple fact gets overlooked ALL OF THE TIME !!!!! People fuss over pickups, strings, the exact model guitar + amp but never about which mic was in front of the amp, where it was positioned, what type of mic-pre / board/eq/compressor was used and who the recording engineer was ... makes a world of difference.

[arielcee]

16"or < archtop w/ a good P-up, 12-13 gauge flatwounds + fender type tube amp (hrd is fine). You really don't need to spend $x000s to get that sound. 17" body probably helps, but hasn't been necessary in my experience having gone for that sound as well.

[Herbie]

That simple fact gets overlooked ALL OF THE TIME !!!!! People fuss over pickups, strings, the exact model guitar + amp but never about which mic was in front of the amp, where it was positioned, what type of mic-pre / board/eq/compressor was used and who the recording engineer was ... makes a world of difference.

So right!

Abbey Road in 1969 was the first no-tube album (at least for the Beatles). One of their sound mens, Geoff Emerick remembers this well:

"Abbey Road was the first album that was recorded through an EMI transistorized desk, and I couldn’t get the same sounds at all . . . . There was presence and depth that the transistors just wouldn’t give me that the tubes did."

So what could we expect from the SM57 and the digital recorders?