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I own a Fender Tonemaster Deluxe as many of you do. I really like the tone of the amp. However, just some thoughts and questions.
Is anyone concerned with reliability?
The tech is based on "modern" or latest computer design.
Will the amp become obsolete in the future as tech changes?
Will the inherent value diminish with newer models?
So far I didnt register the amp. Perhaps that's a mistake.
I like equipment that can be repaired by local techs.
I am going to contact a local tech who's in the know about Fender amps and get his opinion.
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09-03-2020 10:29 AM
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As with all technology, you can count on it. Advances are exponential and it is likely that Fender had something "better" in the R&D pipeline when the TM DR was first released.
Originally Posted by Wildcat
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it's just a computer in a fancy case, right?
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I’m a fan of the technology—even though I don’t own one—because they’re light and they sound good.
That said, my mid-60s Ampeg cost less to buy and have a tech rehab, looks cool as hell, sounds amazing, is built like a tank, and should be repairable for the foreseeable future. I know nothing about the construction quality of the Tone Master amps, but I know that my amp tech of choice would laugh at me if I asked him to crack open the chassis of a digital amp.
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Yours are fundamental questions. But they don't apply to Tonemasters only. Digital signal processing is ubiquitous. Bugs and firmware updates? Sure. Component failures? Who knows. Obsolescence? I happen to believe that tube amps (with only two factories in the whole world still making vacuum tubes) are obsolete. Solid state/digital amps have closed the tone gap to what is acceptable to many, if not most, players. They offer many benefits: e.g. price, weight, maintenance, properties. Whether further improvement is asymptotic, or there's a step change taking SS above tube amps, remains to be seen. I would not be too worried about the investment. That Fender enclosure and the speaker do have an intrinsic value. If the amp fails, it will probably be easier to replace (though not to repair) than an old Polytone, for example.
As a more philosophical note: many guitarists keep changing their instruments like shirts and pedals like socks. They probably lose $$$ on every move. Yet, the amp sits where it's always sat like a piece of inherited furniture. Why? First, because it's so heavy and cumbersome to move. Second, because it's obsolete and has a very low trade-in value.Last edited by Gitterbug; 09-03-2020 at 04:07 PM.
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Any component can fail. Technology will definitely evolve. I have used a Laney Linebacker 50w solid state combo since buying it new in 1986 - it still plays as it did 34 years ago and has never let me down in the way that several qulity tube amps have over the years (various Vox and Fender) - and maintenance has been zero other than to change a plug when I moved to France.... When my Princeton Recording died I replaced it with a Tone Master Deluxe Reverb and find the sounds of my old 1965 Deluxe replicated to perfection - plus only 22lbs, XLR, 3 IR settings, 5 attenuater levels, software update to cut the bright cap and to give greater control of the reverb (an major improvement on the original 1965 model.....)
You pays your money and you takes your choice.... don't look back.
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Too soon to really comment on reliability but I've done many gigs with my TM Deluxe Reverb and it's been wonderful.
Honestly, it sounds like a '65 Deluxe Reverb RI but it's easy to carry, and the inbuilt attenuator means I can get that slightly 'pushed' amp sound at manageable volumes. I was really sceptical of it being all digital at first but honestly there's no way of telling from the sound. It feels/sounds like a Fender Deluxe Reverb.
If it goes wrong in the computer side of things, obviously it's not going to be something that's easy to fix. I wouldn't expect any local tech to be able to fix it.
Things like jacks etc. (i.e. common wear items for any amp) would be repairable/replaceable as per basically any modern PCB based amp.
Like all things it'll become obsolete but I prefer to judge an amp based on it's own merits. If I like it, I'll keep using it. If there's a new model out, it doesn't mean I can't use my amp any more.
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Newer models are not necessarily an improvement. Roland Cube 60 was/is a great jazz amp, while the successors have been less lauded. Fender SCXD with a speaker upgrade (e.g. Ragin' Cajun) was/is excellent, the successor much less talked about in these circles.
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software advances are not exponential. Modeling amps are largely limited by software. Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
That's why the kemper amp modeler is still selling unmodified 10 years after it's introduction. The much vaunted axefx iii still sounds about like the axefx ii . Both are holding their value pretty good but of course, none of the digital amps will go up in value like tube amps.
Modeling amps seem to have hit the wall in terms of accuracy. Even today, there's not a single one that has the real sound and feel of a tube amp in the room. Not sure that's going to change any time soon, not the least of which is that the audience/customer base is diminishing. Long term valuations of modeling amps doesn't look good for that reason alone.
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I cannot address the reliability question as it seems a bit early to know for sure. I got my TMDR right before the pandemic so my gigs have been somewhat limited. All I know is I loved the sound and feel. Yesterday I did the no bright cap firmware update and already love it even more, as far as it performs in my house. Can hardly wait to try it on a gig.
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why wouldn't the reliability be great? Shouldn't be any different than your TV or computer. How often do they "go bad"? OTOH, it's way more susceptible to power variations from surges.
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Previous models of Fender that used digital tech did have reliability problems. Mostly amps big enough to be used at gigs (Cyber twin, cyber deluxe, even the super champ x2), probably cause gigging presents a bigger challenge to an amp compared to home playing.
Hopefully the tonemaster series will fare better. They have been out for a while, have performed generally well, and people gigging them seem to enjoy them and be problems free.
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So the Good news is there are basically no gigs! So no worries,Lol!
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That's a bit misleading though because the Cyber series amps had motorized knobs which obviously is a disaster waiting to happen. Makes you wonder if anyone at fender ever played a gig? Originally Posted by Alter
From what I remember the super champ x2 was a full, high voltage tube amp with digital effects added on so you can't really compare that to the current series of SS amps.
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with amps , reliability issues are sometimes caused by the fact that they Originally Posted by jzucker
are moved around and bumped around a lot
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Usually the manufacturer lets you know how long to expect the device to remain functional.
FENDER® & SQUIER® BRAND AMPLIFIER PRODUCTS 2-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY
Fender warrants that the Fender or Squier amplifier product you have purchased shall be free of any defects in parts and workmanship if used under normal operating conditions for a period of two (2) years from the date of purchase or initial lease, including footswitches, covers, speakers, cabinets, handles and cabinet hardware, except vacuum tubes are warranted for a period of ninety (90) days from date of purchase or initial lease (“Limited Warranty”).
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Hmm... this point of view is good – and makes me worry! Who has a computer older than let’s say five years? Mine have usually slowed down and left behind of software development in shorter time. Originally Posted by jzucker
I too have wondered how will Tone Masters stand time. It is 22 years from Line 6’s first modeling amp AxSys212. Is anybody using them anymore?
I bought my Vox AC-30 (1979) in 1984 and sold it 2018. Even then it was still full of what it had when it left the factory.
So is it more like a modern consumer gadget or more like a perpetum mobile? Only time will tell I guess.
(Yes, I’ll buy TMDR at once when there will be an used one for sale here.)
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There are plenty 20 years old cars with outdated computer technology that still drive like they did when they were new.
Even in the industry in the OT domain there are lots of very outdated PLC's, SCADA systems that still work. These days they are often replaced because operational technology needs to be hooked up on the internet now and the outdated tech becomes a cyber risk.
The computer in the Tonemaster has a pretty simple task compared to what the average iPhone has to do. I'm pretty sure it will work fifteen or twenty years from now.
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the obvious answer for computers is because the software gets more and more demanding. For example, video and photo editing software and various filters and algorithms. The tonemaster is a captured system, not designed to run 3rd party or general purpose digital algorithms, therefore the worry should be nil assuming you buy into it sounding just like a tube amp (i don't) Originally Posted by Herbie
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The Kemper was released about 12 years ago and seems to have few if any issues with reliability or capability. Tonemasters or equivalents are likely to be even better, and cheaper 12 years from now. Only issues I've had with car electronics, on an 8-year old BMW, was when the battery was dying, but a new battery fixed those issues instantly. But apparently some people see guitar amps as some kind of special things that they expect to be able to pass on to their grandchildren, so I don't know.
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And the kemper profiler head has been pretty rock steady at $1500 (used) for 5-6 years. The point is that digital modeling is not rocket science and the technology is already good enough. It's not like video transcoding where you continually need more processing power and more memory because standards went up from 1k to 2k to 4k to 8k. It's a fixed width target and guitar amps are extremely lo-fi to begin with (200hz-5khz) so it doesn't require continual improvement. The newer designs like axefx iii add more features and the ability to split multiple amps among multiple outputs but the actual tones are pretty similar to what they had 5-6 years ago.
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ironically, the one problem they could solve with the bigger memory and faster CPUs of helix and axefx iii is polyphonic, instant guitar synth that doesn't require a hex pickup. The technology's there and could be done relatively easily but there seems to be little interest in it so neither helix or axefx are interested in solving the problem. Kind of like spring reverb...
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Older computers haven't really slowed down. User expectations have sped up. Once upon a time waiting a few seconds was expected. Now it's unbearable. Website developers' expectations have also changed, and many now expect users to be on only their site, with newer and faster computers with much more memory, so the older ones do slow down there. But the computer hasn't actually slowed down.
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It's not a few seconds wait. Transcoding a 10 minutes 4k video can literally take 2 hours on a 5 year old computer. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Yes, but the computer isn't slower than it was 5 years ago. It just hasn't been upgraded to deal with more demanding software. An ancient i386 computer would still be as fast as it was back in the early 90s, but couldn't transcode 4k video. When I started dealing with computers, the maximum memory addressable by DOS was 640k. When it became possible to address a full megabyte it was a big deal. Hardware improvements have happened almost exponentially. Some of the software in use in the 90s is still in use on the latest hardware, where it runs almost instantaneously in many cases. It never ran that fast on older hardware. We get used to the speed of the newer hardware we acquire and forget the speed, or lack of it, of the older hardware. The current modeler amps should continue to work just as they do now, but probably won't work as well as newer models in 5 or 10 years. Technology improves apace.
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