Is it the Guitar or the Amp?

[Marinero]

you stated that a guitarplayer could hide weak technique with an electric guitar and an amp.

Hi, M,
My clarification(what I said) appears in post #23. I don't think I could say it more clearly. Your above interpretation is incorrect and, of course, patently absurd. Thanks for your reply. Play live again??? . . . Marinero

[Marcel_A]

"Start with the player and the intricacies of an individual's own technique: pick or fingers, pick material, pick thickness, nails or flesh, pick grip, picking strength, etc." wzpgsr
And, on a Classical guitar without amplification, you live or die by the sword(technique/sound) but when the sound is generated on a electric guitar by an amplifier and the vagaries of individual pickup styles, it can hide many flaws in individual technique and produce some really great results despite an individual's perhaps, weak, technique.

Not to be a pain in the @#$% but, you state very clearly that people can achieve great results despite a weak technique. In other words: hide it. And it is just not true. Knobs don't do that for you.
I don't need the recepie for paella.

[NSJ]

I find it much easier to get a good sound on acoustic guitar than a gig volume dryish Fender amp. Mind you, given how much these amps are the venerated jazz industry standard, I have to say almost everyone sounds better unamplified; and if that were an option of course that’s what we’d be doing.

Even Peter Bernstein can sound like he’s fighting the amp sometimes. He accepts it and leans into it, which is very much his philosophy.

It’s very hard to achieve a true legato for some reason. You inevitably get gaps between the notes.... (it’s not as bad as a dry marshall, but it’s a bit unforgiving.) Ones playing has to much more consistent and perfect too. This is NOT a problem at lower volumes. Anyone know why? Psychoacoustics? Amp response? The air moving? Proximity to the speaker?

The general solution seems to be to smooth it out with ambience of some kind, such as delay. Some players have made this a trademark, but I’m unhappy with it as it distances me more from my natural sound.

And then there’s players who seem to pick very lightly and use the left hand more. But they usually use a load of the aforementioned ambience. I think electric technique is just different.

I’ve come to expect: play in a large size room, where one has to turn up the volume, an electric guitar is gonna sound like an electric guitar and lose all the quality, the nuances, the sweetness of a great jazz box at low volumes. So it goes.

[rpjazzguitar]

This post will delve into superstition.

I have repeatedly had the experience that my gear sounds awful when I first plug it in on a gig, then bad during the first set, then great during the second. That's with no changes in the settings. And, although things tend to sound better as the room fills up, I've done my share of gigs where the band outlasted most of the audience (like weeknights til 9;30 in a dinner house), and the guitar sounds fine to the end of the last set.

My belief is that this is a matter of becoming accustomed to an unfamiliar sound -- and the unfamiliarity is created by the room itself and other issues of context, like overall volume, instrumentation, etc.

That said, I haven't noticed it as much with the Little Jazz as I do with the JC 55. That could be superstition. Or it may be that the LJ is voiced pretty dark, and, somehow, that improves consistency.

BTW, I won't name the retailer, but I saw the LJ today on line for $329, which is a good price for it.

As far as differences being due more to the guitar vs the amp, that varies a lot. I think of guitars on a spectrum of bright sounding (Tele) to dark sounding (some humbucker guitars especially). Also, woody (archtop) to electric (solids). But, there are situations in which I find it hard to tell an archtop from a solid. For amps, the spectrum may be more harsh sounding to less, richer to less-rich; not sure what else.

[Tal_175]

This thread is getting carried away a bit. There is nothing inherently wrong about the tone of the electric archtop amplified:

[wzpgsr]

I recently got ahold of a Bogner New Yorker amp—kind of 12 watt tweed deluxe thing, but class A, solid state rectified, and just loud as balls even in 6 watt mode. It’s grown on me, but it took a while to figure out how to tame it because the sweep of useable volume for my current purposes is minuscule before the amp gets way too loud. Anyways, this thing accentuates the “microphonic” characteristics of my pickups far more than my other amps. I can just gently tap on the pickup mounting screws and that dry ringing sounds is somehow emphasized significantly when compared to my other amps at the same perceived volume. Humbucker, P90, does not matter. Super weird.

[John A.]

I’ve come to expect: play in a large size room, where one has to turn up the volume, an electric guitar is gonna sound like an electric guitar and lose all the quality, the nuances, the sweetness of a great jazz box at low volumes. So it goes.

For me, the whole point of an electric guitar is having it sound like an electric guitar. If I just wanted to be louder, I'd put a mic in front of an acoustic guitar. But I want the color and compression I get from an amp.

John

[Esport]

I don’t have the luxury of a dugout full of amps to audition, sadly. But...I’ve been using amp modelers for years now and have decided that the “amp” is probably more important for the sound and the guitar is more important for the feel. Just my amateur opinion.

[Gabor]

you stated that a guitarplayer could hide weak technique with an electric guitar and an amp.

Not my post, but I can deeply agree with this. Technique is not equivalent with speed. Speed is the mechanique, while technique is how the player can formulate and execute even a single note, with the exactly appropriate attack, volume, vibrato, ending... and how the player can do and control this with every note in a line, so that become to a musical phrase.

Especially the start and end of a note can be ugly without decent technique, and amp and in general electronics can help to hidec that ugliness, the glithces.. Revetb and tone pot is also part of this toolkit.

[Gabor]

I love making side-by-side clips comparing gear, but recently have been impressed that some amps seem to make my guitars sound more alike, and others seem to bring out the differences. For example, I can play the L5ces, the VOS1959 ES175, and the P90/Humbucker Epiphone through my Fender Princeton Reverb Re-Issue, and they will really sound very close. Strangely, though, my Polytone MInibrute II seems to bring out the differences among these guitars.

Is this a common observation? Do you know of amps that tend to make guitars sound more alike (more like that amp, I suppose?) while other amps bring out the differences among various instruments?

I would do the very same experiment, but with absolute zero reverb. I guess the difference between instruments will be way more recognizable on the Fender amp too. I think this for two reasons, one because the reverb is also a very characteristic part of the Fender amp, two: any reverb can wash out the characterictics of the original sound.

[Marcel_A]

Not my post, but I can deeply agree with this. Technique is not equivalent with speed. Speed is the mechanique, while technique is how the player can formulate and execute even a single note, with the exactly appropriate attack, volume, vibrato, ending... and how the player can do and control this with every note in a line, so that become to a musical phrase.

Especially the start and end of a note can be ugly without decent technique, and amp and in general electronics can help to hidec that ugliness, the glithces.. Revetb and tone pot is also part of this toolkit.

Technique is not equivalent with speed. Nobody stated that is was. I'm not sure i agree with your definition of technique.
Furthermore . . . . we are not talking about fixing mistakes in a studio. It's someone with an acoustic guitar and someone with an electric guitar and an amp. And the second one is not hiding anything. Give me one example of a bad player sounding good through an electric guitar.

Here's an example of a brave co-forummer who shows his skills:
Picking the guitar - Nick Lucas

Try to imagine him playing this piece on an electric guitar. My guess would be that the slips and little misses become more obvious.

[Gabor]

Technique is not equivalent with speed. Nobody stated that is was. I'm not sure i agree with your definition of technique.
Furthermore . . . . we are not talking about fixing mistakes in a studio. It's someone with an acoustic guitar and someone with an electric guitar and an amp. And the second one is not hiding anything. Give me one example of a bad player sounding good through an electric guitar.

Here's an example of a brave co-forummer who shows his skills:
Picking the guitar - Nick Lucas

Try to imagine him playing this piece on an electric guitar. My guess would be that the slips and little misses become more obvious.

OK so we have different opinions, partly about 'how to define technique', and entirely about how an amp can hide some level technique weak points, by its tone control, saturation, and other nonliearities, and also by using reverb.
I agree, nobody talked about fixing errors in the studio.

[lawson-stone]

Technique is not equivalent with speed. Nobody stated that is was. I'm not sure i agree with your definition of technique.
Furthermore . . . . we are not talking about fixing mistakes in a studio. It's someone with an acoustic guitar and someone with an electric guitar and an amp. And the second one is not hiding anything. Give me one example of a bad player sounding good through an electric guitar.

Here's an example of a brave co-forummer who shows his skills:
Picking the guitar - Nick Lucas

Try to imagine him playing this piece on an electric guitar. My guess would be that the slips and little misses become more obvious.

The problem with this claim is that very few try to play ragtime on an electric guitar. It would be like trying to play Dvorak's New World Symphony with a Banjo choir. Some instruments are tailor-fit to some genres. This doesn't really prove anything. I have also heard people "cover up" bad technique by playing acoustically and hiding their flaws behind all the stray noises acoustic guitars can make. With an electric set up to play clean, you can't hide any bad notes or mistakes. It's blasted out for the whole room to hear. I have many times thought playing acoustically that I really had something perfected and then I played it electrically and heard all my mistakes. That's why I nearly always practice with an amp, since electric is my primary way of playing.

[christianm77]

Every time you confuse early jazz with ragtime, Scott Joplin kills a kitten

[christianm77]

The problem with this claim is that very few try to play ragtime on an electric guitar. It would be like trying to play Dvorak's New World Symphony with a Banjo choir. Some instruments are tailor-fit to some genres. This doesn't really prove anything. I have also heard people "cover up" bad technique by playing acoustically and hiding their flaws behind all the stray noises acoustic guitars can make. With an electric set up to play clean, you can't hide any bad notes or mistakes. It's blasted out for the whole room to hear. I have many times thought playing acoustically that I really had something perfected and then I played it electrically and heard all my mistakes. That's why I nearly always practice with an amp, since electric is my primary way of playing.

i think that’s absolutely the case

[Peter C]

P.S. Can you imagine paella without mussels, prawns and turtle? It's eaten all the time! M

Yes, and especially without the turtle. Where would that be? Not in my country, home of the paella.

[Marinero]

Yes, and especially without the turtle. Where would that be? Not in my country, home of the paella.

Sorry for the thread drift but the best Paella I had was in Mazatlan Mexico in the 70's in a neighborhood restaurant/bar owned by a Spaniard from Valencia. Everything was fresh from the sea and it was the first time I had tortuga and-- it was outstanding. Today, of course, it is not politically correct to eat sea turtle meat and ,in most areas--illegal, but the practice was widespread in the past. However, it is still illegally hunted in the Bahamas as I know first-hand from my wanderings. However, today, most consumers eat fresh water turtle, which is quite delicious, and it is available just about everywhere in the USA. It's also great in soups. Bon Appetit . . . Marinero


Search Results

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Boneless Turtle Meat 2 lb bag - Louisiana Crawfish Company





www.lacrawfish.com › Boneless-Turtle-Meat-2-lb-bag-.

[lawson-stone]

Sorry for the thread drift but the best Paella I had was in Mazatlan Mexico in the 70's in a neighborhood restaurant/bar owned by a Spaniard from Valencia. Everything was fresh from the sea and it was the first time I had tortuga and-- it was outstanding. Today, of course, it is not politically correct to eat sea turtle meat and ,in most areas--illegal, but the practice was widespread in the past. However, it is still illegally hunted in the Bahamas as I know first-hand from my wanderings. However, today, most consumers eat fresh water turtle, which is quite delicious, and it is available just about everywhere in the USA. It's also great in soups. Bon Appetit . . . Marinero


Search Results

Web results



Boneless Turtle Meat 2 lb bag - Louisiana Crawfish Company





www.lacrawfish.com › Boneless-Turtle-Meat-2-lb-bag-.

It's okay but be truthful. You are not "sorry" for pushing the thread off topic. Don't apologize unless you actually regret something. We old people drift off the subject all the time, something just to embrace I suppose.

[Cavalier]

I am reminded of when I first started plugging in my violin and what a wonderful teacher that was. To break out of the stereotypical classical and fiddle sounds I learned about eq, effects and pickups at the same time I was picking up electric guitar which resulted in one hand helping the other. For me getting away from the acoustic violin sound helped me form an "electric" approach that I then brought to my acoustic as well. For sure having the volume up over 100 times the level of an acoustic magnifies the mistakes and refines the touch accordingly. I also studied the physiology of playing and learned some classical approaches resulted in a point where the physical demands could not be met while jazz guys like Grappelli with a natural hand position played until they just about had to be carried off the stage.

Analog effects had the great attribute of "warming the sound" and smoothing over rough patches. As digital effects became affordable shortcomings were illuminated which resulted in better technique. Amp and speaker fidelity plays a big roll. If you want a narrow range of the string sound to be represented that can be arranged. Guitar speakers do a good job of this. Over time I've gone to full range fairly flat speakers and amps, my Fender is a lineal Twin, Ampegs, Yamaha G series have a scoop but enough gain in the controls and added highs to flatten out completely etc... premetal Randalls are great.

The same amp settings sound good for both violin and guitar now which means the instruments have to sound good straight up to use together when switching back and forth, the differences in tone of the instruments are well represented because they aren't masked. There is nothing wrong with a colored amp approach as masters of matching instrument to amp like Dumble have shown but having all your amps and instruments be complementary is equally valid and perhaps more handy when you grab things in a hurry. All good fun but an open mind and unbiased ears are your best friend as some things aren't intuitive and it is always a chore to separate reality from advertising, or learning.

[Peter C]

Sorry for the thread drift but the best Paella I had was in Mazatlan Mexico in the 70's in a neighborhood restaurant/bar owned by a Spaniard from Valencia. Everything was fresh from the sea and it was the first time I had tortuga and-- it was outstanding. Today, of course, it is not politically correct to eat sea turtle meat and ,in most areas--illegal, but the practice was widespread in the past. However, it is still illegally hunted in the Bahamas as I know first-hand from my wanderings. However, today, most consumers eat fresh water turtle, which is quite delicious, and it is available just about everywhere in the USA. It's also great in soups. Bon Appetit . . . Marinero


Search Results

Web results



Boneless Turtle Meat 2 lb bag - Louisiana Crawfish Company





www.lacrawfish.com › Boneless-Turtle-Meat-2-lb-bag-.

That's a "paella-style" dish, not paella. Wiki will clarify if required. Rather akin to the music I play, which contains a lot of jazz ingredients, but I would never label it as jazz.

[Hep To The Jive]

I find it much easier to get a good sound on acoustic guitar than a gig volume dryish Fender amp. Mind you, given how much these amps are the venerated jazz industry standard, I have to say almost everyone sounds better unamplified; and if that were an option of course that’s what we’d be doing.

Even Peter Bernstein can sound like he’s fighting the amp sometimes. He accepts it and leans into it, which is very much his philosophy.

It’s very hard to achieve a true legato for some reason. You inevitably get gaps between the notes.... (it’s not as bad as a dry marshall, but it’s a bit unforgiving.) Ones playing has to much more consistent and perfect too. This is NOT a problem at lower volumes. Anyone know why? Psychoacoustics? Amp response? The air moving? Proximity to the speaker?

The general solution seems to be to smooth it out with ambience of some kind, such as delay. Some players have made this a trademark, but I’m unhappy with it as it distances me more from my natural sound.

And then there’s players who seem to pick very lightly and use the left hand more. But they usually use a load of the aforementioned ambience. I think electric technique is just different.

This is what I find too. But is it any Fender amp, or are we particularly talking Fender Twin, that every venue seems choose as a house amp?

I really dislike Twin, never played any that I enjoyed, very sterile, and everything just like you said. But Princeton- no problem, Deluxe, I didnt play much, but I think it's good. Twin is the worst Fender amp.

[Alter]

I think certain amps having a more specific colour would result in imposing that colour on whatever guitar you run through them. Others are more neutral, so individual guitars would sound more different. Depends on the guitars and amps used.

Everything plays a part. Playing on low volume and on loud volume are two very different things. With loud volume, you have a different sound response, you demand more out of your technique, instruments and sound systems. And every musical idiom has a preferred sound level that suits it best. Its one of the things you have to learn how to deal with, similar to setting up at a gig, how you are going to hear yourself, the rest of the band, how the band and the audience is going to hear you, how is the sound of the place, how do the others musicians play..

It all becomes part of the playing experience. For me, the louder it gets, the more difficult things become. Also, the more complicated your rig becomes, the more problems waiting to happen. I 've had occasions where no matter what i 'd do, the guitar wouldn't be cutting the gig, and occasions where the amp was a letdown (much easier to solve as these days you can easily carry a light spare or a pedal of some sorts).

You start to envy horn players after a while.. .. carry a trumpet and that's it!!

It’s very hard to achieve a true legato for some reason. You inevitably get gaps between the notes.... (it’s not as bad as a dry marshall, but it’s a bit unforgiving.) Ones playing has to much more consistent and perfect too. This is NOT a problem at lower volumes. Anyone know why? Psychoacoustics? Amp response? The air moving? Proximity to the speaker?

I think its just the loud volume.. small differences in volume become more apparent, and you start to notice things you just couldn't hear on a lower volume. That's why having a place where you can practice at a loud volume is a game changer and the greatest blessing for a guitarist.

Regarding reverb, i found practicing with a completely dry sound helpful. Once you can play a ballad with no reverb, it's all easier from there on..

[Marcel_A]

For sure having the volume up over 100 times the level of an acoustic magnifies the mistakes and refines the touch accordingly.

This is why i don't understand anybody stating that electric guitar masks anything. It just doesn't.

[zcostilla]

I get the best (well, maybe better) of both worlds with my Quilter Interblock 45. In vintage mode it has the scooped mids, a la Fender, and in full voice it is a flatter response. I have two cabs, both “organ donors” because I literally pulled the speakers out of vintage organs. I get great scooped the out of the dual AlNiCo Clevelands (late ‘50s vintage) and the flat tone sounds better (more like an amplified acoustic) on the ceramic Celestion (early ‘60s vintage).

[lawson-stone]

I get the best (well, maybe better) of both worlds with my Quilter Interblock 45. In vintage mode it has the scooped mids, a la Fender, and in full voice it is a flatter response. I have two cabs, both “organ donors” because I literally pulled the speakers out of vintage organs. I get great scooped the out of the dual AlNiCo Clevelands (late ‘50s vintage) and the flat tone sounds better (more like an amp,irked acoustic) on the ceramic Celestion (early ‘60s vintage).

I feel the same way about my Quilter TB 202. The Vintage voice is very Fender like, FullQ gets over to the Polytone sound. I’m considering selling several amps because this TB202 is so versatile.


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