Kent Armstrong Handwound PAF Worth it?

**chameleon** · 07-21-2020, 05:20 PM

Hey there, I'm looking to upgrade the pickups on my Eastman El Rey 2 from the original Asian Kent Armstrong ones.
I really like the acoustic sound of the guitar but I hate the amplified one. The pickups sound very middy and extremely compressed to me, I want something more balanced and with a rich acoustic tone.
The KA Handwound PAFs are used by many high end arch top luthiers and I haven't read a bad thing about them. The main reason I am hesitating is, they seem to be hard to come by in Europe, I could only find them from WD in the the UK, and I am a bit wary of them since they don't respond to my e-Mails, and they list them as having 6 weeks waiting time, and don't offer them as a set or at least different neck/bridge versions, so I am a bit confused.
Are they worth the trouble so, or are there some more easily available that are just as good?

**Franz 1997** · 07-21-2020, 05:53 PM

Aaron Armstrong in the UK hand-winds the same pickups, if that's any help. That's his son..

**chameleon** · 07-21-2020, 06:03 PM

Interesting! I'll try to get in touch, thanks a lot!

**neatomic** · 07-21-2020, 06:49 PM

kent armstrong handmade is big step up from his generic asian branded pups...his son aaron, is in uk but it seems he can only be contacted via wd music these days...so you might be in same predicament

you can get lots of great paf type pups via thomann..take a look at lollar imperial! also seymour duncan still makes great pickups

paf is not that difficult a formula...lots of good ones out there

cheers

ps- for euro side handmades...creamery and oil city both in uk are worth a look... as well as rautia in finland

**marcwhy** · 07-21-2020, 07:01 PM

You're in Europe - try Bareknuckle!

[there are a lot of good pickup makers out there! "Worth" is a funny concept ...]

**chameleon** · 07-22-2020, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by neatomic

kent armstrong handmade is big step up from his generic asian branded pups...his son aaron, is in uk but it seems he can only be contacted via wd music these days...so you might be in same predicament

you can get lots of great paf type pups via thomann..take a look at lollar imperial! also seymour duncan still makes great pickups

paf is not that difficult a formula...lots of good ones out there

cheers

ps- for euro side handmades...creamery and oil city both in uk are worth a look... as well as rautia in finland

I don't know so much about pickups, but if that was true, how is it possible that the asian made ones sound so much worse, if PAFs are so easy to make?
From the specs I gather the KA Handwounds are around 8 Ohm Resistance and use Alnico 5 magnets. Will any other PAF in the same ballpark give similar results? I'm a bit wary of trying my way through the tons of PAF variations from different manufacturers, I don't want to go on an endless tone hunt. My reasoning was, if so many high end luthiers use it, it has got to be the best, and I'd rather get the best at once and be done with it.

**Woody Sound** · 07-22-2020, 07:28 AM

I've owned two of them, a floater and a built-in, and they sounded fabulous.

**marcwhy** · 07-22-2020, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by chameleon

My reasoning was, if so many high end luthiers use it, it has got to be the best, and I'd rather get the best at once and be done with it.

Luthiers often cater to their customers, despite what they like or consider "the best." I know a well-respected (on this Forum and elsewhere) luthier who only uses KA when people ask for them, but he personally does not like them. "Popular" does not necessarily mean "the best."

For PAFs, try Lollar, Amalfitano, JM Rolph, Klein, et al. -- again, too many great pickups!!

**Franz 1997** · 07-22-2020, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by neatomic

kent armstrong handmade is big step up from his generic asian branded pups...his son aaron, is in uk but it seems he can only be contacted via wd music these days...so you might be in same predicament

you can get lots of great paf type pups via thomann..take a look at lollar imperial! also seymour duncan still makes great pickups

paf is not that difficult a formula...lots of good ones out there

cheers

ps- for euro side handmades...creamery and oil city both in uk are worth a look... as well as rautia in finland

Contact info , phone number, email form here - though I agree that there are many other great options.

Contact us | Armstrong Pickups

**Marty Grass** · 07-22-2020, 09:16 AM

Kent Armstrong makes, or at least made, a single coil floating pickup that had a switch that changed the coil wraps from fairly hot to just warm. That is a great pickup.

I know the thread is about humbuckers, so pardon me. I'll also suggest considering the Fralin P-92. It's hum-free and has a little more warmth (meaning a slight loss of clarity) compared to the P-90 but less than a humbucker. They sound great on an archtop. This video gives some indication but uses a semi-hollow.

**marcwhy** · 07-22-2020, 01:45 PM

Good call, Marty! I think P-90s in general are excellent for jazz!

**Alter** · 07-22-2020, 02:15 PM

I have 2 of Kens pickups. A single coil on my Elferink and a paf on my Mesrobian L5 clone. Both excellent, with the single coil being really special. I like the Lollars a lot too, I've heard both archtops and 335s sounding great with them.

**neatomic** · 07-22-2020, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by chameleon

I don't know so much about pickups, but if that was true, how is it possible that the asian made ones sound so much worse, if PAFs are so easy to make?
From the specs I gather the KA Handwounds are around 8 Ohm Resistance and use Alnico 5 magnets. Will any other PAF in the same ballpark give similar results?

because they don't use the same parts...enamel wire...bobbins made of same material...magnets. etc etc

also a handwind by a skilled winder thats been doing it for decades rather than a young girl in a factory that never even touched a guitar

all the winders i mentioned ^ either do it themselves or have a small team of trained winders who've been doing it for years

cheers

**Woody Sound** · 07-22-2020, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

Kent Armstrong makes, or at least made, a single coil floating pickup that had a switch that changed the coil wraps from fairly hot to just warm. That is a great pickup.

Yeah, scroll down a few inches.

https://www.archtop.com/ac_access.html#anchor46177042

Armstrong Handmade Floating Single Coil

**Herbie** · 07-22-2020, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Alter

I have 2 of Kens pickups. A single coil on my Elferink and a paf on my Mesrobian L5 clone. Both excellent, with the single coil being really special. I like the Lollars a lot too, I've heard both archtops and 335s sounding great with them.

Can You compare the KA PAF and Lollar Imperials? Are they similar in any way? Different in which way?

Many appraise the KA’s as the best for jazz tone but I have never heard or played them.

**Sam Sherry** · 07-22-2020, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

kent armstrong handmade is big step up from his generic asian branded pups

Tremendous respect for your contributions here but my experience is that even though Mr. Kent Armstrong is a genuinely nice person and a truly top-shelf winder, the Asian model Kents are indistinguishable from their Vermont-wound counterparts in a blind test.

When pickups vary from the standard model you can tell. For example, the 12-screw Asian Kent PAF that came OEM in my old El Rey 1 was off in some manner that I don't recall. The straight Asian Ken PAF that came OEM in my current El Rey 4 is fine and does not call out for replacement.

Originally Posted by neatomic

you can get lots of great paf type pups . . . paf is not that difficult a formula...lots of good ones out there

Spot on.

Originally Posted by chameleon

how is it possible that the asian made ones sound so much worse, if PAFs are so easy to make?

"Psychoacoustics." People pay a lot for it.

Originally Posted by chameleon

From the specs I gather the KA Handwounds are around 8 Ohm Resistance and use Alnico 5 magnets. Will any other PAF in the same ballpark give similar results?

Spot on. Any difference between one 8k / A5 straight-PAF pickup and another are within the correction of setup, player's technique and amp tone knobs.

All that said, you CAN hear whether the pickup has been potted or not based on pick-click and other microphonic phenomena.

**Nick71** · 07-22-2020, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

Kent Armstrong makes, or at least made, a single coil floating pickup that had a switch that changed the coil wraps from fairly hot to just warm. That is a great pickup.

I know the thread is about humbuckers, so pardon me. I'll also suggest considering the Fralin P-92. It's hum-free and has a little more warmth (meaning a slight loss of clarity) compared to the P-90 but less than a humbucker. They sound great on an archtop. This video gives some indication but uses a semi-hollow.

I really like these Fralin P92's. I have looked into them lately and agree, they are sweet..
Nick

**neatomic** · 07-22-2020, 06:05 PM

a paf is more than just resistance numbers..in fact that's the least of it!!...in old days they went by number of winds, not resistance...resistance was a result, not the determining factor...slight fluctuations in just the coating on the coil wire can cause big resistance number changes...a paf has a very specific recipe...like if nan's sauce calls for basil and you only have marjoram...might taste good, but it ain't the same!!

on a pickup, even the polepiece screws matter!! true metallurgy/alchemy

a veteran winder knows about these things...the knowledge i$ the premium

cheers

**Max405** · 07-22-2020, 07:32 PM

The pickup sounds nice but our guy Chris Whiteman is killin it!
We can put together one heck of an all star band here.
JD

**coolvinny** · 07-22-2020, 07:51 PM

I've had the Lollar Imperial HB and I've had the KA HB (although as 'smoothtop' i.e. without adjustable poles) in a couple guitars. I still have the Lollar in my Collings Eastside Jazz (instead of the stock Lollar CC).

If you ask me, the KA is quite a bit warmer. Whether that is "better" depends on a bunch of other factors. The KA sound is like "instant jazz" whereas with the Lollar it's not necessarily as automatic, but still sounds very good. My 2 cents.

Point is, I think there are some real differences here. But all the good pickups can sound good...it just comes down to taste.

**Cunamara** · 07-22-2020, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Tremendous respect for your contributions here but my experience is that even though Mr. Kent Armstrong is a genuinely nice person and a truly top-shelf winder, the Asian model Kents are indistinguishable from their Vermont-wound counterparts in a blind test.

When pickups vary from the standard model you can tell. For example, the 12-screw Asian Kent PAF that came OEM in my old El Rey 1 was off in some manner that I don't recall. The straight Asian Ken PAF that came OEM in my current El Rey 4 is fine and does not call out for replacement.

There is an interview somewhere with Kent where he states that the Asian pickups, at least the ones made in Korea, are hand wound by one guy who uses the same materials, specifications and techniques that Kent does. Kent trained him.

**ccroft** · 07-22-2020, 09:01 PM

I like KA handwound 12 pole PAFs. I have 1 guitar with floater and 1 with set. I could not be happier with these, and I can't imagine changing them. I've been a humbucker guy for most of my 50 years of guitaring. Mostly Gibson, including original 1961 PAFs with the sticker.

I replaced the Asian made in my 2007 Eastman Pisano 880 with a Vermont made. Noticeable difference. Not psychoacoustics. It's a bigger, warmer sound. I think others may prefer the Asian. In this case you'd say the Asian one brings out the acoustic quality of the guitar. The story is that John P. worked with Kent on a pickup design for these guitars. Maybe John prefers the airier sound.

I didn't like it. I tried speaker swaps, different amps and EQ pedals. I changed the pickup and I instantly had what I'd been seeking. So it comes down to the sound you're looking for. It may be that the newer Asians are not the same as what was in my Eastman.

One obvious difference is that the Asian one is 'standard' PAF construction with a metal case and presumably some air inside. The Vermont one is a solid block of phenolic or something. No idea what's under that coating. It might be described as potted, as noted in an earlier post.

So that's a sample size of one in one guys experience. The Asian KA PAF had an emphasis on upper mids. The Vermont-made has less of that and more lower mids. Asian brings out harmonic over-tones. Vermont emphasizes the fundamental tones more. In my limited experience.

**Doug B** · 07-22-2020, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

kent armstrong handmade

Also available at DJANGOBOOKS:

Kent Armstrong Handmade Pickups - DjangoBooks.com

**Hammertone** · 07-22-2020, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

Kent Armstrong makes, or at least made, a single coil floating pickup that had a switch that changed the coil wraps from fairly hot to just warm. That is a great pickup...

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

Yeah, scroll down a few inches.
ac accessories
Armstrong Handmade Floating Single Coil

I have this pickup mounted on a couple of my archtops. "If you've been looking for the sound of the old DeArmond Model 1100 or Gibson P-90" ...this really works for both, IMO.

This pickup is not offered as a made-in-Korea version, so expect to pony up for it in the $160 range. Well worth it.

**neatomic** · 07-23-2020, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

There is an interview somewhere with Kent where he states that the Asian pickups, at least the ones made in Korea, are hand wound by one guy who uses the same materials, specifications and techniques that Kent does. Kent trained him.

that's old press

dongho electronic factory in sk has been making armstrongs pickups for years... they manufacture pickups and parts for many in the industry

cheers