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yeah ac30, he talks about in a rig rundown. I would get one if they weren't so heavy
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04-01-2016 03:16 AM
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the blues deluxes are great amps but arent they a bit too loud for a quiet venue? ive used them in rock gigs with really loud drummers and even then they seem too much
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Mine is not really comparable to the original anymore
Originally Posted by nick1994
Although only a couple of caps and resistors are changed, that had a great impact on the sound! Especially increased negative feedback and the use of a 12AT7 phase inverter tamed down the volume increase on the dial of the volume considerably. Although in the end volume is the same, the originals tend to jump from zero volume to too much, mine develops it's volume much more gradually.
But you are right that the originals seem to be tweaked to be as loud as possible with as much bass as possible (at the expense of good jazz tone imho).
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I love tube amps, and I think sound-wise, they're just fine for jazz. Of the amps I own, my favorite is the Dr. Z Maz 18. Yes, it's voiced a little bright for jazz, but it's easily tamed. My only issue with it is the weight. It's a heavy little beast considering it's only 18 watts. (Which, BTW, talking about headroom - I've never had any breakup from it at jazz-appropriate volume levels).
I also have a SS Acoustic Lead 60, which is MUCH lighter. The Acoustic sounds really good for jazz stuff, although not quite as airy as the Z. I use the Acoustic for most things which involve leaving the apartment.
(Though I prefer the Maz for gigs.)
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I get inspirational tone out of all sorts of different amps, both re size (i.e. wattage, speaker size, weight) and electronics (i.e. tubes/transistors/hybrid). I stress the word inspirational because that is what it boils down to : is the tone and response you're hearing pleasing to YOUR ears and does it inspire you to play different lines /beautiful melodies, chords, improve your time, makes you play less notes, leave more space etc. ?
When I listen to old studio recordings by Kenny B, Benson, Hall, etc. I hear different tones on each and every one of their dates and that tells me this (among many other things) : they probably only brought their guitar to the date, relied on the amp at the site, relied on the technician to mike it up properly, sometimes they recorded straight into the board (tube preamps ...), the volume level in the booth/rom differed greatly depending on the size of the group, type of music. etc. SO many variables ..... no way to get a clear picture in my head.
I recently found some clips of Benson playing festivals , mid/late 60's and he played his Xss off !!!!! The sound he got with his Super-400 was a catastrophy, distorted, bland, ughh - looks like he had a Showman head with a 2x12 cab behind him.... go figure.
Then there is Ed Bickert, sounding wonderful with his ol' Tele through a Roland Cube !
When I play a normal small club gig my amp rarely gets miked up- there is almost never a decent and functioning PA system with enough channels at the venue (the singer/horns get the pick of the litter) and when the group doesn't bring one in the right size I'm out of luck. So I most likely carry my 150 watt Evans solid state amp because then I can be sure to have enough clean volume to cover almost any room.
When you don't play out or when you never have to fight a drummer/organist who drownes you out then any old small wattage tube combo will most likely be sufficient - doesn't work for me outside my house. Here I get great tones out of a re-worked 16 mm film-projector amp (15 watt EL84 unit from 1960) I found in a basement, hooked up to an equally old and obscure 12" alnico speaker in a
cab that looks like a suitcase - you woulnd't believe it by the looks of the rig but it delivers , AT HOME !
In my view this discussion leads nowhere, sorry guys ! Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks .....
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+1 what Little Jay just said. Our only destination is, ultimately, the great dirt nap.
Meanwhile, we are trying to glimpse happiness by making some beautiful sounds. An archtop guitar played into a tube amp is capable of really lifting some spirits.
My guess would be that most forum members have experience with tube amps that are grounded in the Fender/Marshall/Vox family of amps. I wish that more people could have had the pleasure of playing an archtop through some of the 50s and 60s Ampeg combo amps.
(If you could visit Hammertone, you would know what I mean. He has a terrific collection of Ampegs.) Ampegs were designed to fill the needs of what we might think of as the "New York" musicians of the 50s and 60s, as opposed to the emerging sounds from SOCAL of that period. Listen to jazz guys from the east of that period, from Johnny Smith to Larry Coryell, and you are hearing Gibson archtops plugged into Ampeg combo amps. The sound is sublime.
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I think we have different needs and uses too.
If I was a "big name," I'd ask the house for a Fender, and be done with it. If I was playing places like Smalls, that I knew had a Fender, I'd be good to go.
If I'm playing "show" type gigs and there's actual time and space to load in and out, heck yeah, I'll bring a tube amp. I see Little Jay, on an actual riser, that's a great gig for a tube amp.
If I'm playing the type of gig I usually get, and taking the train, then squeezing between tables on the way to my dimly lit corner, I'll bring a loud-enough little solid state amp and be done with it.
Truth is, I'm always going to sound like me, for better or worse.
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I believe that Rivera—Rivera 55 Jazz Suprema—has already done that. It's a tad heavier than most SS amps, but if tone is your quest, the Rivera has it and then some. Disclaimer: while I own the aforementioned amp—among others mentioned in this thread— I have no affiliation with the manufacturer. Originally Posted by Toat
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Yeah, old Ampegs are swell. I use them for jazz. And blues. And rock. And everything else. Originally Posted by Greentone
A few Ampegs by Nate Lamy, on Flickr
Ampeg-a-few-more-lo by Nate Lamy, on Flickr
Last edited by Hammertone; 11-09-2017 at 02:24 AM.
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Hammertone's top picture, bottom right, is an Ampeg Echo Twin Amp. That's the one that Coryell used all through the 60s--especially when he played with the Gary Burton Quartet. The sound of that amp with a big Gibson archtop is inspirational.
It is hard to over-rate how good the tone stack on those old Ampeg amps is for playing jazz (or anything else, as Hammertone suggests). Ampeg used a baxandall stack. The bass and treble are flat when the knobs are set at the half-way point. This most definitely is NOT the case with the F/M/V amps. On a typical Fender you'd need to cut the bass to about 0.5 and the treble to 0.5 (and count on the midrange resistor value to get you a setting of mid = 5) to give you an approximately flat tone setting. I can't tell you how difficult it is to get guitarists to even try this setting.
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Ssshh, don't tell Bernstein, or Burrell, or Malone, or Bollenback, or Benson, or yada yada. Lord knows what would happen if they found out that turning the knobs on their amps to get the sound they like is a "compromise." Originally Posted by Toat
John
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This might be of interest for those looking for a tube amp with a different twist :
Juke Amplification
I own a CODA amp that Mr. Croteau built for me in 2014. Definitely a worthy contender and it delivers a superb tone at low to medium volume. I swapped some preamp tubes (lower gain 12AY7's) and now it def. has plenty of clean headroom in the 30 watt setting. It came with a Jensen Neo speaker that wasn't half bad but I tried it with a Celestion Gold and leave it alone now, it's done. The tone controls work differently than in most amps because they are active : at noon the eq is flat so when I turn the treble down towards 7 or 8 the tone gets warmer but doesn't loose definition and the mid/contour control works likewise, scooping or fattening up, very intuitive and
effective. The amps are built one at a time, they are not cheap but absolutely worth the investment. I'd love to have an old Ampeg but
all you ever find over here (Europe/Germany) are bass amps ... plus I'd rather play out with a new amp than with an antique collectors item that might break down in the middle of the set ....
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As good a time and place as any to clear up possible misconceptions about how the Fender tone controls operate...
The Fender tone stack circuit does not operate like the tone controls of old hifi systems. Those systems offered a flat response from which you could turn the knobs clockwise or counter-clockwise to deviate from flat in either direction... on those tone knobs, the middle center position was the flat "no effect" position, often with a detent to maintain it.
The Fender tone controls are quite different. The ones labeled Treble and Bass do not add high and low frequencies; they do the complete opposite. Turning the Treble control to higher numbers attenuates the low frequencies because it is a high pass filter - it can only reduce bass. Likewise, turning the Bass control to higher numbers attenuates the high frequencies because it is a low pass filter - it can only reduce treble.
Since both of these are net reductions in signal level, the way the tone stack works is that there is a +20dB gain stage to recover the losses incurred when "turning up" the treble and bass knobs. This is also why the rated output power specifications call for the tone controls to be set to their highest values in order to include as much of the gain stage as possible.
The Middle tone control is not actually a tone control at all; it is an inverse insertion loss recovery - whatever the shape of the frequency response curve, the Middle control simply raises and lowers the entire curve.
The result of all this is that the Fender tone stack approaches a flat response when the Treble and Bass controls are set at MINIMUM and the Middle control is set to MAXIMUM. A lot of people assume that flat is going to be with each control set to center values, which on the 1-10 knobs is 5.5-5.5-5.5... but the flat response is actually the one we call "1-10-1".
Using the "1-10-1" setting is going to "de-rate" the amp, so a Twin Reverb rated at 85 watts will actually push out a sound level more like a 22 watt Deluxe Reverb. Except that nothing in the amp will be anywhere close to being stressed - the speakers, tubes, filter caps, and output transformer will be well "over spec'ed" even with the volume set high.
If you have not tried the "1-10-1" for jazz, please do; you may be amazed and delighted because it it much closer to the actual sound of your guitar. You may even find that you like bringing it down a little more (-6dB) by using the inputs labeled "2". For Fender amps that don't have a Middle control, the tone stack uses a fixed resistor the equivalent to setting the Middle at about 8.5 (if it had a Middle control). So for the Deluxe Reverb or Super Reverb's Normal channel, or the Princeton, it's just "1-1". For amps that don't have a Bright Switch (Princeton, Deluxe...), de-rating the amp allows you to get the volume control above halfway where the cap in the Bright circuit has lost its effect.
I find that "1-10-1" is an "old fashioned" beautiful voice for soloing that is also very much a "blend in" sound when accompanying, very responsive to dynamic changes in picking, accents, control, articulation, tone quality, on and on, just very nice for jazz.
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Originally Posted by pauln
What about Fender amps with a presence control?
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pauln's analysis of the Fender tone stack is excellent. For sure--anyone who has really pushed a Fender amp can tell you this--max volume out of a Fender comes when you crank the bass/mid/treble knobs. The only problem is, the tone isn't exactly what you would want to write home about.
The 1/10/1 setting is the true eye-opener on a Fender Twin-Reverb/Pro-Reverb/Super-Reverb/Showman, etc. The way this setting works with an archtop guitar (or a 335 for that matter) is really sweet. I originally discovered it quite accidentally when trying to find a setting that would sound close to Grant Green's tone. I was playing a garden variety Silverface, master volume Twin Reverb Amp with my ES-335 at home and tried just about every combination I could dial in. The closer I got to max Middle and almost zero Bass, zero Treble, the closer I got to Grant Green's sound (to my ears, anyway). [FWIW, I was using no bright switch and the number two input in the vibrato/reverb channel.
Years later, I modeled this setting with Duncan's software and discovered that this was about the flattest setting you can get from a Twin Reverb. Essentially, it corresponds to 5/5 on an Ampeg Gemini I or II Amp (an amp I am also very familiar with).
Oh, yes. pauln is correct. With the 1/10/1 you will get the volume on a Twin Reverb at or above 5 for about the only time ever, unless you are sitting in with Ted Nugent.
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My all time favorite amp -- and the one I use in my rehearsal room is a 64 Ampeg Reverberocket.
Back in the 60's the jazz guys I knew (including Jack Wilkins and Carl Barry) used, afaik, the Ampeg Jet with a JBL speaker.
I fell in love with the Ampeg's reverb and bought the Reverberocket because the Gemini was too expensive. Rock guys I knew had the Gemini I.
All great sounding amps.
The Super Echo Twin is one I've never heard, but I understand that it is two Reverberockets in one enclosure. As good as one of them sounds, two must be great.
And, they're available at a fraction of the cost of a comparably vintage Fender.
One other point: the Reverberocket circuit changed a number of times. I've never read a comparison of sound. Mine has solid state rectification and 7591's, 6SN7 and 6SL7, I think. I've never played any others. The best thing about mine is the sound of the reverb. To me, nothing like a Fender.
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"If you have not tried the "1-10-1" for jazz, please do; you may be amazed and delighted because it it much closer to the actual sound of your guitar. You may even find that you like bringing it down a little more (-6dB) by using the inputs labeled "2". For Fender amps that don't have a Middle control, the tone stack uses a fixed resistor the equivalent to setting the Middle at about 8.5 (if it had a Middle control). So for the Deluxe Reverb or Super Reverb's Normal channel, or the Princeton, it's just "1-1". For amps that don't have a Bright Switch (Princeton, Deluxe...), de-rating the amp allows you to get the volume control above halfway where the cap in the Bright circuit has lost its effect."
Do this on a Hot Rod Deluxe and you will have a VERY sweet jazz tone.......
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This setting works well on the SuperSonic 22's Burn Channel. With Gains 1& 2 at 3.5 it is very clean. Raise the Gains to say 5.5 you get some very nice Wes Montgomery grit. Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
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Bill Frisell - "Surfer Girl" (at the Fretboard Journal) - YouTube
and your trusty plain "off topic" old Henriksen amp
Last edited by West LA Jazz; 05-10-2017 at 03:18 AM.
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Puhleese! Super Echo Twin. No mere Echo Twin for me. Originally Posted by Greentone
Actually, I have had several of both models and they are both swell. They are pretty much the same thing, but the Echo Twin typically had tube rectifiers/6V6 tubes and the Super Echo Twin typically had ss rectifiers/7591 tubes. I'm sure Ampeg mixed this up depending on how drunk they were that day. The result is that the Super tends to be a bit cleaner and louder up to a point.
Speaking of Echo Twins, here's a dirty little secret from the world of rock, in case you evere wondered how he got some of his iconic solo tones out of that Les Paul:Last edited by Hammertone; 05-10-2017 at 03:25 PM.
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I played in a rock band from 1963 to 1967. One of the guys had a Super Echo Twin. IIRC it had a sloped front and a great sound. This same guy replaced it in 1965 with a B-12xt Portaflex, which looked ultra cool but was not as crisp as the Super Echo Twin.
Me, I stuck with my blackface Twin Reverb, and to this day, I haven't looked back.
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The B-12xt! I remember when these came out. When my local dealer got one I developed serious GAS. It looked like something off of the TV series "Planet Patrol." I thought that if I acquired a B-12xt I would need to invite the Venusian "Slim" to play keyboards in the band.
Seriously, though, as good as some of the non-bass flip-top Ampeg amps were, they were no match for the _Super_ Echo Twin.
Commenting on a point made above, the reverbs on Ampeg amplifiers are, in general, more dramatically musical than the ones on Fender Amps. I say this as a big fan of Fender amps. (I have owned virtually every tube Fender amp from the Champ through the Showman.) As good as the Fender amps are--and that is pretty much "gold standard," judged purely on reverb quality I would have to give the nod to all of the Ampeg amps I have owned and played.
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Stupid question of the week: Originally Posted by Greentone
Have you ever used or heard a SS amp that came at all close to mimicing the tone of and old Ampeg?
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There are lots of sounds covering lots of genres tucked away in those Ampegs. I've used an A/B box to switch between my Ampeg Gemini II and my Boss Katana to try to mimic my favored sound from the Ampeg--mid-heavy with a touch of fur and some high-end sparkle. I've gotten in the ballpark, but then consider that it's a 15" alnico Altec speaker in a large open-backed cab versus a ceramic WGS 12" speaker in a much smaller cab. Frankly, though, I am pretty satisfied with just how close I can get. Originally Posted by whiskey02
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"Have you ever used or heard a SS amp that came at all close to mimicing the tone of and old Ampeg?"
Not exactly. In terms of function, the employment of baxandall tone controls, etc., I would suggest that some of the Polytone amps are in that ballpark. However, the closed enclosure speaker cabinet configuration of the Polytones is different and different sounding than the infinite baffle and ported enclosures of the Ampegs. Also, the Polytone amps--which I love and have used for going on 40 years--have reverb sections that are weaksauce compared to Ampeg amps.
Still, when I think of an amp to replace an Ampeg SB-12, the MiniBrute I comes immediately to mind. The MiniBrute IV is a reasonable replacement for the old G-15 Gemini II. (I am speaking principally about the diamond Tolex series of Polytones.)
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