Super 400 ridicolously cheap?

[Tal_175]

12th fret is a well known store in Toronto for high end used guitars, mandolins and banjos. Pretty much the only store of it's kind in the city (There is one other similar but smaller store). This guitar has been in the store for months. They keep knocking down the price. Now it's at 6750 CAD (comes to around 5000USD). It's not like it has any flaws. It's pristine. Comes even with the original case. Is this another sign that archtop market is dying:
Gibson Super 400 Archtop Guitar Natural, 1948 | www.12fret.com

Note: This is not a sale post. I'm not selling the guitar nor do I have any affiliations with the store or the owner of the guitar. It's just that I've been seeing a lot of achtops lately with very good prices just collecting dust in the stores.

[wintermoon]

refinished

[Tal_175]

Yeah you're right. I missed that. Still though, according the reverb price guide this is like half price.
Gibson Super 400 1948 Sunburst Price Guide | Reverb

[wintermoon]

1/2 price is typically what a refinished guitar is worth.
but if you like it make an offer, they'll probably bite.

[Gabor]

It does not look like as photos of the actual selling item, more like "borrowed" stock or article photos,
Maybe I am wrong... but anyway, above $5000 the buyer expect more than 2 photos and including close ups...)

[Tal_175]

1/2 price is typically what a refinished guitar is worth.

Wow ruthless.

[wintermoon]

Wow ruthless.

I don't set the market, it is what it is...

[wintermoon]

It does not look like as photos of the actual selling item, more like "borrowed" stock or article photos,
Maybe I am wrong... but anyway, above $5000 the buyer expect more than 2 photos and including close ups...)

nah, they're photos of the actual guitar, I'm sure if you want more they'll email them to you.

[Tal_175]

It does not look like as photos of the actual selling item, more like "borrowed" stock or article photos,
Maybe I am wrong... but anyway, above $5000 the buyer expect more than 2 photos and including close ups...)

I saw and played the guitar a couple of months ago. It's exactly like in the photos. It was too light and acoustic for my expectations from a Gibson archtop. But then it's 1948.
I was shocked how clean it was. Didn't suspect that it was refinished like a doofus.

[Tal_175]

I want a refinished 1959 ES 175.

[wintermoon]

I saw and played the guitar a couple of months ago. It's exactly like in the photos. It was too light and acoustic for my expectations from a Gibson archtop. But then it's 1948.
I was shocked how clean it was. Didn't suspect that it was refinished like a doofus.

well, it is an acoustic guitar, not sure what you were expecting

[Gabor]

nah, they're photos of the actual guitar, I'm sure if you want more they'll email them to you.

My bad then.

I did not know the actual store and meanwhile I googled using the picture and did not found match so I concluded I was wrong, it's original.

[Tal_175]

well, it is an acoustic guitar, not sure what you were expecting

I played other super 400's none of the were nearly as light weight as the one in the ad.

[wintermoon]

I played other super 400's none of the were nearly as light weight as the one in the ad.

were they acoustic Super 400s? pickups, pots, knobs, etc add weight

[Tal_175]

were they acoustic Super 400s? pickups, pots, knobs, etc add weight

Some of them. There is more to weight of the build than the hardware. Of course gravity does it's part, but super 400's I played felt more thickly carved than this one. There was an acoustic L7 in the store when I played the S400 which felt heavier.

[wintermoon]

refinishing requires sanding, that'll thin things out a bit.

[customxke]

Refin without a serial number on the label......I think it’s priced fairly.

[WillMbCdn5]

My 51' Super 300 non cutaway weighs 6 lb 2 oz /2.78 kilo with original finish and no pickup.
Will

[Jim Soloway]

My bad then.

I did not know the actual store and meanwhile I googled using the picture and did not found match so I concluded I was wrong, it's original.

Probably the most reputable store in Canada.

[Dennis D]

refinishing requires sanding, that'll thin things out a bit.

I'd have to think a natural -original-to-natural refinish wouldn't remove too much ' meat '......But I'd agree original sunburst-to-refinish in natural would mean some aggressive sanding....

Yes, no or ?

[wintermoon]

I'd have to think a natural -original-to-natural refinish wouldn't remove too much ' meat '......But I'd agree original sunburst-to-refinish in natural would mean some aggressive sanding....

Yes, no or ?

probably correct Dennis, I was just funnin'

[Dennis D]

I saw and played the guitar a couple of months ago. It's exactly like in the photos. It was too light and acoustic for my expectations from a Gibson archtop. But then it's 1948.
I was shocked how clean it was. Didn't suspect that it was refinished like a doofus.

I wouldn't feel too bad about not having spotted the 'refinish'. The color was an original natural, so you wouldn't have seen the telltale marks that are typical of sunburst-to-natural refinishes.

[DRS]

Refin
Non-original pick guard
None cutaway
Still, $6750 is $5,000 usd and a good price.

[customxke]

Refin
Non-original pick guard
None cutaway
Still, $6750 is $5,000 usd and a good price.

Agreed, but I wouldn’t say ridiculously good. I got a straight 55 L5N last summer for $4200 last year

[Dennis D]

Agreed, but I wouldn’t say ridiculously good. I got a straight 55 L5N last summer for $4200 last year

You did good !! Nice going !!

[Woody Sound]

Funny how we all obsess about certain things. I have no trouble with a *quality* nitro refin at the right price. Can make an otherwise ridiculously expensive guitar actually affordable. The pickup placement bothers me more. To have to get ANOTHER guard made, etc.

[sgosnell]

If you're buying the guitar to play, a refinish can actually enhance the value. Sealing up scratches and missing finish is a good thing. If you're buying it to collect, that's another thing entirely.

[Dennis D]

Funny how we all obsess about certain things. I have no trouble with a *quality* nitro refin at the right price. Can make an otherwise ridiculously expensive guitar actually affordable. The pickup placement bothers me more. To have to get ANOTHER guard made, etc.

I respect your opinion WS, and yeah I can see having to have another guard made would be a pain.
But man I sure wish that were all I'd ever find wrong with used guitars I'm considering . That pg replacement is a pain yes, but man that's about as easy as a fix gets. If the guitar sale gets down to being priced correctly, except for the cost of a pg, - - - - ( ? ).
You know,there's the usual 'frets could be better', the 'truss rod may not work', the 'top has settled a little', etc etc......

I do wish though, that this one had a tag w/ legible s/n.....but - -- whoever said 'make them an offer' - they may bite' is right......


Just MHO, and good luck to anyone here considering it !

[dodona]

price is the result of supply/demand, and Idon't believe that too many people are interested in a none cutaway single p90 super 400.

[wintermoon]

Whoever?
Well....

[jameslovestal]

I wouldn't feel too bad about not having spotted the 'refinish'. The color was an original natural, so you wouldn't have seen the telltale marks that are typical of sunburst-to-natural refinishes.

So does a "refinish" impact the sound quality of a guitar? I was my understanding that the answer was generally-NO.

I ask because I care little about how something looks (cars, guitars), and more about how they function. Thus if I could get a fine arch-top, at a major discount, that was "refinish" (or say needed one), but it played just as good as the same model that "looked great", that would be my choice.

[wintermoon]

If you have no concern about resale value down the road there's absolutely no reason to scoff at a nicely done refinish.
But personally I wouldn't buy one unless I was confident I could at least move sideways (break even) down the road. Too many guitars out there to make a potentially bad decision.
A refin can affect the sound but not always.

[Dennis D]

So does a "refinish" impact the sound quality of a guitar? I was my understanding that the answer was generally-NO.

I'd agree, that there shouldn't be any sound impact from a refinish but I'll defer to the more knowledgeable members here for that answer.

I will say that I'd sure have to believe * if * there is any impact on sound quality from a refinish, the least impact should come from a well done refinish, from natural color original to natural color refinish.

Just MHO - yes, no ??

[Tal_175]

A good refinish job should not impact the sound in a negative way. The question is why was there a need for a refinish in the first place. Was it due to purely a cosmetic preference or was it part of a major repair/restoration.

[wintermoon]

a friend had a vintage guitar refinished nicely, it didn't kill the sound but it wasn't quite the same afterwards.
this is not a cut and dry thing as I've played plenty of refins that sounded great.
ymmv....

[Stringswinger]

a friend had a vintage guitar refinished nicely, it didn't kill the sound but it wasn't quite the same afterwards.
this is not a cut and dry thing as I've played plenty of refins that sounded great.
ymmv....

The D'Angelico Excel that I bought from Joe D. has had a full refinish by a master refinish expert and sounds great. That said, I have no idea what it sounded like prior to the refinish.

I have a Thames classical that was French polished by the maker and after 35 years needed to be refinished (French polish guitars are supposed to be refinished from time to time). The sound is the same after getting a French Polish refinish by a master .

But I knew a guy who had a Dupont Gypsy guitar refinished and the guitar had a different tone after the refinish. And he was not pleased.

I suspect that there are a lot of variables that cannot be 100 percent predicted.

Count me among those who prefer a refinish if the guitar sounds great and costs half as much. For me it is about playing music, not collecting baseball cards. YMMV

[floatingpickup]

The D'Angelico Excel that I bought from Joe D. has had a full refinish by a master refinish expert and sounds great. That said, I have no idea what it sounded like prior to the refinish.

I have a Thames classical that was French polished by the maker and after 35 years needed to be refinished (French polish guitars are supposed to be refinished from time to time). The sound is the same after getting a French Polish refinish by a master .

But I knew a guy who had a Dupont Gypsy guitar refinished and the guitar had a different tone after the refinish. And he was not pleased.

I suspect that there are a lot of variables that cannot be 100 percent predicted.

Count me among those who prefer a refinish if the guitar sounds great and costs half as much. For me it is about playing music, not collecting baseball cards. YMMV

I agree, that sound and playability are the most important things. I don’t really know what impact a pro refin has on the sound of a guitar. My personal experiences have been varied.

I had a refinished 1939 D’Angelico for a number of years. The restoration was beautifully done by a very well-known archtop builder long before I owned the guitar. I have no idea what the guitar sounded like before the refin, but it always seemed to sound a little tight and weak to me when I owned it. I am not sure if the refin changed the guitar or if it was just that way from the beginning. Handmade guitars are obviously not all going to sound the same...even if they were made by John D.

On the the other hand, I remember a refinished 1950’s L5C that my brother had many years ago. It was one of the best sounding guitars ever. I guess the refin didn’t hurt that one.

Keith

[floatingpickup]

price is the result of supply/demand, and Idon't believe that too many people are interested in a none cutaway single p90 super 400.

It isn’t a p90. It’s a floating Bartolini pickup, which can be easily removed without affecting the guitar in any way. In other words, this is a totally acoustic non-cut Super 400 (albeit refinished). I would just get rid of the pickup and put a replica pickguard on it. I realize that the demand for these guitars is not great these days, but I sure like them.
Keith

[RudolfR]

Given the stinger on the instrument, I wouldn't be surprised the reason for the refinish was a broken headstock.

[Woody Sound]

price is the result of supply/demand, and Idon't believe that too many people are interested in a none cutaway single p90 super 400.

P90? Wha....

[Dennis D]

Given the stinger on the instrument, I wouldn't be surprised the reason for the refinish was a broken headstock.

But you wouldn't refinish the whole guitar just to repair a broken headstock, would you ?

Scratching my head again.....

[Alter]

Perhaps extreme finish checking that someone didn't like?

[wintermoon]

Given the stinger on the instrument, I wouldn't be surprised the reason for the refinish was a broken headstock.

nah, they all had veneers w/stinger on the back of the headstock and no one's gonna refinish a whole guitar because of a headstock anyway

[floatingpickup]

nah, they all had veneers w/stinger on the back of the headstock and no one's gonna refinish a whole guitar because of a headstock anyway

I know the guys at 12th Fret personally and they are knowledgeable, trustworthy and honest. They wouldn’t hide any issues with a guitar that has been consigned with them. I am sure the guitar is exactly as presented. The refin reduces the value significantly. Combine that with a soft archtop market and a weak Canadian dollar, and a guitar like this is pretty affordable.
Keith