The New Standard ?

**newsense** · 10-27-2019, 05:31 PM

Now that the ES-175 is no longer available to purchase new, is it right that we should still regard it as the standard by which others are measured ? What should we now recommend as the go-to instrument for a pro gigging jazz guitar ? Or does it no longer matter ? With so many diverse styles in jazz, is there any need for a "standard" instrument ?

**mr quick** · 10-27-2019, 05:41 PM

Wait, I thought thinlines and semis were the pro go-to?

**customxke** · 10-27-2019, 08:08 PM

I thought the L5 was the standard.

**Dedalus** · 10-27-2019, 08:48 PM

What difference does it make whether Gibson is/is not, currently manufacturing them?

Edit: They are, and will continue to be, widely available. And as others have mentioned, whether they’re the standard in jazz guitar, is up for debate

**Jazzstdnt** · 10-27-2019, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by newsense

Now that the ES-175 is no longer available to purchase new, is it right that we should still regard it as the standard by which others are measured ? What should we now recommend as the go-to instrument for a pro gigging jazz guitar ? Or does it no longer matter ? With so many diverse styles in jazz, is there any need for a "standard" instrument ?

I do believe that we established a couple of weeks ago that we CAN get one, $$$. But heck, there are plenty of laminate guitars with 24.75 scale length out there, aren't there?

And it hasn't been the "go-to" that you allude to for a long time, if ever (per others comments here about L5s). Joe, Jim and Pat Metheny played them and that was great. But going back, what did Wes play? He was far and away the largest figure on the jazz guitar after the 1950s, and his shadow is still being cast.

So - the "new generation" was Benson/Martino, Coryell/McLaughlin. News flash - they didn't play ES-175s. Neither did Holdsworth. So what did Scofield play? Kurt? Bernstein? Lage?

Maybe get an ES-335 and call it a day? :0

**entresz** · 10-28-2019, 01:36 AM

For me the benchmark is the L-5.
I was lucky enough to have a play of a Gibson L5 Wes Montgomery, one of the few that had the pearl heart inlay near the pickguard. Without doubt the best electric guitar I've ever played.

Mind you, I really don't care for thinlines or semis. I don't care for the sound or feel of 335s. However, I do like the way they look!

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 10-28-2019, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by customxke

I thought the L5 was the standard.

Why do you think that? Jazz guitar history proves otherwise. (Tal Farlow, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, Grant Green, Herb Ellis, George Benson).

A statistical survey of who is playing and played what at some point in time would probably indicate that other models are used more frequently than the L5. I am convinced of that. Just prove me wrong.

There is no standard. Just statistics.

DB

**mr quick** · 10-28-2019, 02:53 PM

Interesting thread to read, I didn't know that so many used L5's and ES-175's and/or considered them the standard! The professional jazz players I know all play 335/330 type guitars, aside from a few outliers; a couple of Heritages, one ES-175, and a strat

**GNAPPI** · 10-28-2019, 03:53 PM

We pretty much answered this question in a popularity survey Dirk took (thanks for that) and obviously it lumps in tyros, pros, teachers, and collectors. Big name pros who played successfully for ages are not IMO a good barometer unless we look back into their career before the endorsement money started rolling in. What Is The Best Guitar For Jazz? (TOP 15)

**Tal_175** · 10-28-2019, 05:41 PM

What makes a guitar model standard is not solely defined by guitars a handful of very top greats played. It's also defined by the preferences of working jazz guitarists, side men/women, local A-list players etc. It's hard to get statistics about overall preferences of those who's worked in the trenches over the years.

**Tal_175** · 10-28-2019, 05:51 PM

Also what I heard about Wes and L-5 is, when he decided to learn guitar and play Charlie Christian solos, he went to a store and asked for the best jazz guitar. The store owner handed him an L-5. I don't know if Wes Montgomery really cared so much about the "L-5 mojo" or whether he would've sounded less awesome on an ES 175 had the store owner handed him an ES 175 that day.

**jads57** · 10-28-2019, 05:51 PM

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, there weren't so many choices available for the guitarist. The market wasn't that competitive as it is in recent times.
So the std was Gibson, Fender,Martin, for the main choices with smaller companies like Guild ,Gretsch, and cheaper imports.

Gibson dominated the Jazz scene with ES-175 being the affordable workingmans guitar. The L-5CES and Johnny Smith being the Cadillac status
ES-335 was the Blues,Folk Rock, choice and SG and Firebirds being Rock and Teenage market.
Later when the Les Paul guitar made a comeback, they became the Std.