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Originally Posted by Woody Sound
John
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09-30-2019 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by John A.
Olds / Saturn was going too be the division that competed with and felt like the Euro brands.........
....And when everything went South, they tried to sell the Saturn brand to Roger Penske.......now that would've been interesting !
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Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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I think archtops have been a niche market for some time and I think there are too many good alternatives in the market. Epiphone has really stepped up their game when it comes to build quality. When I was in the market for a blues guitars to add to my Fenders I looked at Gibson Les Pauls and ES-335s and also tried the Epi Les Paul Tribute model (with the Gibson vintage PAFs) and the Sheraton II Pro. I thought the build quality was just as good as the Gibsons, and the feel and sound were at least 90 to 95% as good, and the looks were better than the more affordable Gibson versions. But they were a fraction of the price, so I went with the Epis and do not regret it.
When I was in the market for archtops I found there were just too many attractive alternatives to Gibson. If you want to spend less, there are excellent quality options like Eastman, Peerless, Heritage, Ibanez, etc. and for more money there are fantastic hand built guitars from small luthier shops that are competitive in price with the Gibsons.
All of my jazz guitar heroes played Gibsons and I practically worship the ES-175 (I even have a book about its history), but I don't think they are worth the considerable premium for the name on the headstock. No, the Peerless clone I got does not sound the same, but I love its tone and it was $800 used.
There are always going to be those that are willing to pay the premium for the name and the mojo they feel the real thing gives them, and for that reason I hope Gibson continues to make them, but I am not sure if there are enough of those individuals to support new production of these guitars.
I know a lot of people that claim that current production Gibsons do not have the quality they once did. I do not have enough experience with Gibsons of various eras to know if this is true or not, but that seems to be the perception of some people.
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There must be something special with Gibson, for years and years I hear people (including myself) saying "it's 99% of Gibson for 25% the price, no reason to spend more" and finally, when money allows it they buy the real thing.
I couldn't tell the number of Gibsons lookalikes I found excellent then sold...
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Originally Posted by John A.
All Current Vehicles: Luxury Cars, Sedans, SUVs & Convertible | Buick
What I should have said is, I would have liked to have seen these 3 brands:
Caddy, some combo of Buick/Olds, and some combo of Pont/Chev.
They killed off numbers 2 & 3, of the 5, instead of numbers 2 & 4, which would have more evenly split the difference.
Caddy
Buick
Olds - GONE
Pont - GONE
Chave
Still don't know if I am explaining myself well.
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Just want to say again how spectacular Crimson edition Gibson Archtops are or were. Phillip Whorton had some of the best builds under his leadership in my opinion. And that includes Jim Hutchins and the 1950's as well!
In a way it's truly a waste of Gibson's luthiers, skills having them design guitars for Slash etc. And while I certainly can appreciate a great Les Paul or even thin line, a Carved top guitar requires a bit more skill.
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Originally Posted by jads57
But a new 175 cannot be had. Why not offer those by special order? Why discontinue an iconic guitar? I am sure that a few could be sold each year for a profit. Having been in business, my thought is that if you already have the tools, the facility and the labor and the customer wants something not on the "menu" and is willing to wait till you can produce it, you are a fool to turn that customer away.
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"My understanding is that Gibson will make you a carved top archtop by special order today if you will pay the price. That seems like a proper way to market L-5's and Super 400's given the scant demand for a new one"
That's actually the way it was in most places back in the day except for the big shops who might have one in stock.
There was also a time in the late 80's early 90's when carved archtop production resumed that you had to pay Gibson 50K just for the right to offer them, don't know if that's the case today
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Like the historically open for lunchtime only fast food restaurants, they have the site to maintain 24/7 with A/C, insurance, lighting... it's silly not to offer breakfast and dinner options, which now many do.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Originally Posted by Tatayoyo
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Originally Posted by Tatayoyo
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Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
My guess is that the break-even price for a 175 (factoring in the opportunity cost) is too high for what Gibson believes the market to be. Over time, the new guys may be able to close the productivity gap and make a viably priced 175 (and/or a halo effect), and bring them back. But all this is just a guess.
John
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I'll start by saying that I am a Gibson fan, warts and all. I was raised with the brand and have a decent little Gibson collection. I wish the company and, especially those who depend on the company to earn a living, the best of luck going forward. Really it is a business plain and simple with all that entails.
With that said, from a selfish point of view, there are so many good used Gibsons out there already. I would never buy a new one and take that hit money wise. I especially like the 90's era for the brand.
Also, there are now so many great alternatives out there from other makers, domestic and overseas.
In the grand scheme of things, to me all this is of little real consequence. I do have that soft spot in my heart for the brand. I've been watching the Ken Burns PBS country music series and seeing all those old Gibsons, guitars mandolins etc, remind me of the historic aspect and I do wish them well.
But that's just me.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
........These builders mentioned were / are indeed building custom laminates, but never in any production numbers..... but the 175 was never meant to compete with a hand-made luthier built instrument.....And I'd guess most if not all of these builders' guitars sold for a lot more than a 175 and rightly so..... the 175 was /is basically a student level guitar, or one step above, aimed at the entry-level part of the archtop market.......
........Those builders may indeed have offered and still offer custom built laminate instruments, but unlike Gibson, they'd be building them in pairs, not dozens.
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Originally Posted by John A.
You can see 335's and 175 go through exactly the same process (starting at around minute 6:00 or so). Just different thickness. In fact the solid block of 335 may even be extra work.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Veblen or Giffen?
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Originally Posted by Dennis D
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I've become friendly with someone on the Product Development & MFG side at Gibson and he said a few things of interest.
they are absolutely making Archtops. Every day. Using original templates and carving machines, etc. And are in the process of relaunching a lot of products so the visibility isn’t great right now. Said can order anything through a Gibson dealer.
they build to order and have a big backlog so it does take some time but rarely would would they have available inventory of Archtops.
The ES-175 didn't have great sales numbers as a core model. Mentioned the used demand curve. And that it took up a lot of opportunity cost as well. it's acustom-order for now, but that could change.
I think most of this known, but the mention of the opportunity cost by Stringswinger sparked my memory of the conversation.
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So you can order custom ES 175? That's what I read somewhere. I also heard that the custom order price for ES 175 is around 10.000 USD though for solid color! Don't quote me on that. I see no reason Gibson not make custom ES 175's. They don't need to make them one at a time. They are not gonna tell you to come by in the afternoon and they'll have it ready. They'd instead make a whole bunch couple of days a year. That's why you'll get 6 months or say wait time on such orders. Like shown in the video, they are made just like any other ES guitar with a wider strip of plywood for the sides and a few things here and there.
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$10000 the ES 175 ???
It's kind of "basic" model, no ?
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Originally Posted by Tatayoyo
The Audo Plug in Scam
Today, 10:12 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos