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01-09-2010, 09:11 AM #26Ray C. GuestReading through this thread and recalling others, I think this is spot on. I think there are some conflicted musical personalities here
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
. Perhaps a bit more rock and roll in their hearts then they want to cop to?
I think an amp that falls in between 30w-60w is will get you through almost any jazz gig. It's only a matter of the whether you like the ease in travel vis-a-vis tubes vs solid state.
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01-09-2010 09:11 AM
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It depends upon who you are playing with of course. I had a conversation last week with a drummer I have known for forty years who couldn't remember the last time he'd used brushes, which is in fact tragic. Admittedly he's a session player and does all sort of gigs, but it was a telling comment. Originally Posted by Ray C.
Reading through this thread and recalling others, I think this is spot on. I think there are some conflicted musical personalities here. Perhaps a bit more rock and roll in their hearts then they want to cop to?
I think an amp that falls in between 30w-60w is will get you through almost any jazz gig. It's only a matter of the whether you like the ease in travel vis-a-vis tubes vs solid state.
Although I've got a 140 watt Fender Jazz King (so the label says), I only have it for the rounded mellow tone it produces which is probably due to the size and weight. I also play at volumes you can still talk over. I hate over-loud amps even though I used to play rock in the 60s myself. I even played the Isle of Wight Festival in the late 60s in front of 150,000 using a 30 watt Vox valve job. When I walked on with it people back stage looked at me as if I was mad (although they were probably right). Admittedly it was miked up through some louder equipment which belonged to someone else, but I hated doing it nonetheless.
At many jazz gigs I go to these days, a small amp is often fed through something else like the house equipment, and for jazz, you really don't need to blast people to death. A bit of my own prejudice I admit, but if your drummer doesn't, or can't use brushes due to the volume, then you ain't really cutting it in jazz.Last edited by Ged; 01-09-2010 at 03:18 PM.
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ged, i think that's pretty spot on too. admittedly, my main amp is a 100w polytone--but i like the fact that i never have to turn it up past a certain level to get the volume i need. i definitely am not a fan of a "amp working really hard" sound for jazz.
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Thanks. Mind you, it's all about venues as well. I used to love playing in the little clubs and hated the big stadium-type ventures. It sees to me that jazz is a thoughtful, contemplative sort of music that brings out different emotions in the listener, and this demands a venue where 'cranking it up' is not necessary. An audience has to be able to quietly reflect on what they have heard to gain the full benefit. And as anyone knows, its also about the arrangement of notes that are used. Just to hear a few notes from Wes absolutely kills me! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
If it's so loud and you can't hear how one note relates to another, then what's the point?
Earlier last year heard Pat Martino at Ronnie Scott's club in London (the perfect jazz venue anywhere) and even though his organist, the great Tony Monaco really took off, it meant that Martino had keep in front at times. But these guys, with all the technical wizardry now available, knew how to handle it sensitively.
My best wishes to you.Last edited by Ged; 01-10-2010 at 07:17 AM.
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Just my recent experience concerning Princeton...
I upgraded my 1971 Princeton Reverb with a Delta Demon 10"/100W speaker. Played it with a band, a drummer, a bassist and a loud keyboard player. Never had to turn the amp past 5, cut through loud and clear with a P90 hollowbody.
Of course, if you want super clean sounds you'd be better off with a twin or something else as big. I personally prefer a bit of grit, that's why P90+small tube amp-combination works for me well.
Tina
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I feel the same way and have found similar results with my Princeton Reverb Reissue that I put in an efficient 12" speaker into. Originally Posted by Little Tina
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It is pretty easy to double the volume of most amps with a speaker upgrade. However some of this new efficiency may come from a lighter cone bringing with it a tighter, more treble edge. I' m not a great fan of HF compression drivers and all that enthanced top end sound. I think punters like mellow not that sort of Disco laser sharpness.
Thinking of doing something like this myself and going back to a Fender Frontman 25R ( It has just a great clean sound but not much else ) and swapping the stock speaker, which is a little too sharp for my liking, with an Eminence 'Lil Buddy'. Even new, the amp and speaker would still only come to about £146. I really don't get this £1000 clean amp thing that jazz players get into.
If Joe Pass was happy turning up and plugging into the House PA - am I missing something you guys are doing with expensive jazz specific amps?
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Yeah i also use a 15w princeton design amp but with a 12 and yes theres some dirt when the drummers loud but its a sweet breakup that somewhat enhances the tone "when loud" and then i have an old 80's dynacord dc 120 ss amp that sounds clean at full tilt and my zt ac lb for small venues ,
so yes have a few amps , the breakup of tube sound is awesome, raw clean loud ss amps, and highly portable amps are all different but one can use em all ,
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I find that a bit of dirt often sounds like a fat clean sound when you are playing with other instruments and get some cancellation. An ultra clean sound can sometimes sound thin. I love Princetons. I have an early '70s and a reissue and find that they both sound excellent. My volume barometer is getting as loud as a sax.
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If the OP wants to spend a little bit more money, here's a great option. I played one of these at the Fall Philly Guitar Show a month or so ago. I already have a 1970 Fender Pro Reverb that was black faced by Andy Fuchs . . or I would have bought one new at the show. It was really nice. George is also doing Princeton Reverb Reissues with the same PTP wiring. They're available through Doyelstown Music shop . . or is it Guitar Shop??
Anyway . .
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-1965-...-/330730174368
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-1965-...-/251127451477
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Maybe this is an over-simplification. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
How do I double the volume of a Deluxe Reverb by a mere change of the speaker?
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Because an increase of +3dB is perceived by our ears as doubling the volume. So going from a speaker with an efficiency of 98dB to a speaker with an efficiency of 101dB makes your amp seem twice as loud. Originally Posted by Jazz_175
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If I wanted to sound like Joe Pass I would not care about gear for sure. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
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Yeah, Joe was the master of inconsistent tone. I find some of his albums unlistenable.
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I agree... And it's hard for me to get past that unfortunately.
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Um, not quite: Originally Posted by Little Jay
An increase of 3 db is perceived by our ears as one notch louder. It is produced by doubling the amplifier power. So a speaker that is 3 db more efficient will have the virtual effect of doubling the amplifier power.
The perception of 'twice as loud' is commonly accepted in audio circles as resulting from a 10 db increase in volume; this requires 10 times the amplifier power.
Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Yep 3 db is 'heard' as twice as loud and needs twice the amp power. to get to +6db you'll need 4x and then another 3db will be 8x so that means + 9db is 8x the power at the amp. But its is also sensitive to frequency. The human ear is sensitive to a particular range (don't ask me what it is accurately - it's in my college books upstairs) but something like 400-4000hz. But the higher you go the mo the ear hears it as volume because of this slope of sensitivity. That's why a bass amp is usually 4x as powerful as the guitar amp - bass is not heard as loudly and the guitar - and at the other end you can hear a set of the tiny tubular bells un-amped.
Its pretty easy to outperform the average speaker a manufacturer puts into the amp because they are on a budget and working to price points. And as said, increase the sensitivity by three points and you've made the amp sound like its twice the wattage. Just beware of my earlier point that you haven't increased the high frequencies in that exercise because some speakers get that extra sensitivity by enhancing the 4000+ hz range. Check the graphs in the websites for the speaker manf. to check. Eminence also have sound sample for mostof their guitar speakers. Easy to hear some of the differences.
Lastly the cab has a big effect on how the speaker performes. Most cabinets from commercial manufacturers are just built to box the amp and speaker. A purpose built cab will also double up the volume pretty easily and project better. Check out Bill Fitzmaurice's Jack speaker cabs. Still faily small but much more efficient than your average combo, open back box.
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Jazz 175 - simple answer is to get a nice Eminence replacement to the stock Fender speaker. If you email the tech team at Eminence and describe what you want, they will tell you what speakers you should be considering. The efficiency is what will give you more volume. So Something like an Eminence Patriot Commonwealth with a sens of 100db will definately sound louderr as a straight swap out of the stock DLR speaker.
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The C Rex is 102 db and a classic DR replacement. They have some other speakers that have 103 db. But I've read Eminence inflates the numbers...
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Yep, that's one of the classic swaps for sure. And you are right about the sens numbers - you have to look at the graph on sens v frequency to see what's happening. Those HF spikes arn't really what you want with Jazz but they will raises the sens numbers. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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The whole notion of "twice as loud" is a red herring. Ask someone how to make something twice as loud: it doesn't make sense. Are two people singing twice as loud as one person singing? Is a 2x12" cab twice as loud as a 1x12" cab with the same speaker model? Originally Posted by Tom Karol
Um, not quite:
An increase of 3 db is perceived by our ears as one notch louder. It is produced by doubling the amplifier power. So a speaker that is 3 db more efficient will have the virtual effect of doubling the amplifier power.
The perception of 'twice as loud' is commonly accepted in audio circles as resulting from a 10 db increase in volume; this requires 10 times the amplifier power.
Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Don't even say "twice as loud". Say, "I want to be loud enough to be heard in this venue over the drums".
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Suitably chastised BigDaddy. Of course you are right in many ways. But some speakers are louder than others for all sorts of technical reasons. And I completely agree with only loud enough for the venue.
Last edited by ChrisDowning; 12-12-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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Tom Karol is right. 10db is (subjectively) perceived as "twice as loud," 3db is a (subjective) slight increase in volume. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
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It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong, because I'm more than twice as LOUD as you guys!
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Is a 100W light bulb as loud as a Twin Reverb?
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