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I use a nylon saddle for just the high E on a t-o-m bridge, and can barely (maybe almost) feel that it knocks the edge of the plink-y-ness off the high E string sometimes.
But this effect is extremely small, at best. And that is with the saddle in direct contact with the string over a very small contact patch - which would very much increase the effect of any practical elasticity n the nylon.
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07-23-2019 10:06 PM
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There is nylon and there is nylon. The nylon used to make saddles are designed for this purpose and built to be stiff. Nylon washers are completely different material and not designed for stiffness. I also think the washers are placed in a critical location. All string impact is SOLELY passing through these washers and the material they are made of. I don't know how subtle or obvious the difference will be, but I'd be surprised if it's not easily noticeable.
Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
If people can hear the difference between rosewood and ebony bridges, they should be able to hear the difference between rosewood vs rosewood/nylon mechanism.
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I understand. In my experience, the perceived sound difference between rosewood and ebony is overwhelmingly based on the difference in mass. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Logic does not easily affect one who already has his mind made up and closed.
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Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. From what I can tell at this point, there is sufficient adjustment in the posts to ditch the washers. I assume this was not the case prior to the planing. But as QAman said, he has seen these washers on several Heritage guitars. So I’m wondering if that’s the way the guitar came from the factory to correct some setup issue from the start.
Regardless, I did find a source for ebony washers if the washers are necessary (e.g., post leaning with the saddle up too high): Ebony Washers (Pair).
If I had sensitive enough recording equipment I might consider recording a track with the nylon washers in place, without the washers, and with ebony washer and posting them to the forum for you to hear. But I wonder how much a difference would be discernible even in person. The guitar is very lively now but perhaps improvements could be made.
And, I wonder how common fretboard planing is to correct fret buzz? Typically all that is needed is a fret level in that area of the fretboard.
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As mentioned above, washers on top of the wheels will not permit raising the saddle any higher, nor will they correct lean. If you have a problem with the saddle being very high and leaning because the posts are tilting, then another set of wheels, snug against the base, will help.
Planing isn't too uncommon, I don't think. Some fretboards are so high in the upper fret regions that fret leveling won't get the job done, because there would be little or no fret left. Ski jumps aren't all that common, but if there is one, planing is really the only remedy that I know of.
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it's the last step a lot of guys try, before a complete neck reset...tho in honesty, 90% of the serious trouble(not talking abt regular set-up) with action on guitars is neck angle...so if the neck was reset first... before... the planing and even fretwork might not have been required...chances are the actual neck work was done correctly (most guitar factories are trying to get it right!) but the neck moved after the guitar was completed..and there's myriad reasons why necks can move..from too tight cases, bad glue to getting bounced around in shipping etc etc Originally Posted by Bill Eisele
cheers
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I was in the middle of composing my response and attending to some other things while the posts about the washers not being able to raise the saddle further or correct leaning came in. So, if there’s a leaning problem I will install an extra set of wheels against the base. So, it would seem based on some of the posts that the washers are there to make it easier to turn the thumbwheels. I will probably remove the washers during the next string change to see if there’s a noticeable tonal difference and if there’s any problems turning the thumbwheels without the washers. Originally Posted by sgosnell
The planing job was done well with just a tiny bit of finish missing from the neck just adjacent to the binding in one spot and a black line running in the middle of the binding looking a little wobbly in places. The major tell tale sign that something was done is the absence of the binding nibs on either side of the frets in that area. But those would be missing with a mere fret level.
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I will be taking the guitar to the repair technician very soon to address some other issues, so I will have him look at the neck joint to see if there are any remaining issues to be addressed in that area. Hopefully none. Thanks for the heads up! Originally Posted by neatomic
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Moment of self reflection? Originally Posted by sgosnell
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On a side note I like the smoothed off saddle end on that Borys Originally Posted by QAman
Here is a pic of my Borys B120 wheel.
I smoothed/rounded the rosewood saddle ends on my guitars too ...
Makes it more comfortable to palm mute Etc
carry on ....
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It's possible the nylon washers were just there to make it easier to turn the thumbwheels.
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Quite possibly - Originally Posted by Cunamara
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It probably has a brass thread stem not just a washer. Gibson 59 VOS 175's had the brass stem/washer which made the saddle fit very tight on the stems with no slop. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Here’s a couple photos of the threaded posts with the thumbwheel and washer. Kind of hard to see the posts in the photos. But, as others are surmising, the washers could be there to make the thumbwheels easier to turn. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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They don't need to be there to raise the saddle, the wheels are about as low as they can go, and could be raised without problems. I have no idea why they are there. Perhaps the previous owner preferred the tone with them installed. People have very different tastes. Or maybe they make it easier to turn the wheels. Anything is possible, I guess. I would be interested in hearing the difference in sound with and without them, or at least your impression of the difference, if any.
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BTW if I just wanna remove the saddle, I secure the bridge with electrical tape so it doesn't slide out of position when the strings get loose. Or I just put two small pieces of electric tape just behind the bridge on both ends (treble and bass) to mark the position so I can put the bridge exactly where it was (If I'm not changing string gauge). I don't know how you guys do it, but I find electrical tape very easy to remove without any damage to the finish.
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This thread has a lot of activity.
As a generality, Heritage archtops back in the day had as their best features the build, woods, and finish. Fretting, hardware placement, setups, and soldering was not consistently great. Tool marks on the fretboard were very common.
Most of us expected to do a full setup and some slotting work on a new guitar.
Soft bushings between the saddle and wheels must change the tone to some degree. Maybe you like it and maybe not. Let's assume you don't like it or you don't like the looks or idea of it. It's not hard to get another bridge base and fit it to the top.
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43 posts of assumptions can't beat first hand experience, try removing the washers.
Removing the nylon washers on a bridge is not rocket science and certainly doesn't require to change the bridge base.
The thumb wheels are still low and would not sit so high on the post once the nylon washers are gone.
I have brass inserts washers on my 1959 125 full rosewood bridge, they were originally missing when I got the guitar and I could source original ones on Ebay.
Can't tell much difference between before and after the brass insert!Last edited by vinlander; 07-26-2019 at 10:51 AM.
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I find electrical tape to be a little messy, leaving sticky residue. I use blue painter's tape (masking tape, but cleaner) instead. It's cheaper and neater, doesn't leave anything on the top. But whatever works...
I've suggested removing the washers and seeing what the difference is. Doing that is not rocket science, nor even complicated luthiery. One question I have about the guitar in question is what the black between the wheels and the washers is. It may be part of the wheels, with a flange on one side, or it might be a second set of washers. I can't tell from the upside down photos, even after turning my laptop upside down. It's not important, just curiosity, but if the wheels have small flanges, that might explain the need for the nylon washers, to make it easier to adjust the wheels, because the small flanges could dig into the saddle, maybe, possibly, dunno. The only way to find out is to remove the saddle, and it's not my saddle. If it were, it would have been removed long ago, and possibly reassembled as is, or maybe without any extra pieces, depending on how it sounded. I tend to prefer simpler over complicated, all things being otherwise equal, so I might ditch the washers, but you never know until you try.
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The photos are deceiving. When I looked at them I also saw what looked to be either a second set of washers or a flange on one side of the wheels. It caught me off guard to the point where I went back and closely examined that area of the guitar. There’s nothing extra there. Just the flat wheels and one set of washers. Originally Posted by sgosnell
I will record something with the washers in place and then without this weekend and post them to this thread. I would have done it sooner once I started the thread, but I hadn’t been feeling well after receiving my second dose of the Shingrex vaccine. Not sure if anyone else had the same experience getting the vaccine but it felt like the full blown flu and it lasted for many days.
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I highly, highly doubt that anyone will hear a difference from a recording.
You, however, may hear or feel a difference as a player. Such is the case for a great many of the minutiae elements that we musicians obsess over. Our own perceptions when actually playing the instrument are truly all that matter.
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Especially true with my iPad/free Spire app and file compression. Not a state of the art recording chain to be sure. Originally Posted by rpguitar
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I had the Shingrix vaccine a year or so ago, and felt no ill effects other than a slight soreness at the injection site for a day or two. I think that if you have a reaction to a vaccine, ir's probably because you needed it.
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Not much to add, but here's what I think;
At some point in time someone replaced the wooden saddle with a metal bridge for intonation purposes. The Nylon washers cut some highs, making the acoustic tone closer to the original wooden bridge. When the wooden bridge was restored the washers were accidently left.
I bet there won't be much difference in the amplified tone, but I guess you'll notice a difference in the acoustic tone.
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