Tube vs good non-tube amp for cleans (and light overdrive with pedals)

**Spook410** · 06-09-2019, 08:15 PM

As for 'people can't tell the difference they just think they can..'

Easy test: Get a decent amp emulator and run to a decent powered speaker. Switch between Vox, Fender, and Marshall sounds. Hear the difference? Yea. It's not hard. Now, imagine if there were a 'SS' setting to compare to. It's the character of the sound.. not the EQ setting.

And maybe you can't hear it. Good. Will save your back. But don't say the rest of us can't hear the difference between a SS and tube amp. Maybe a few of the current generation which are working to copy a tube amp sound are close. But not the old SS amps which sound sterile and quite different.

**Spook410** · 06-09-2019, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

<snip>

Once they were both adjusted to "my sound", my wife couldn't tell which was which (that was the blindfold part of the test).

I'm wanting to try one of the DV Mark Little Jazz amps for those times when light weight is really important. Recordings certainly sound good.

However.. you should get a Carr Rambler (in the name of broadening the base knowledge of jazz guitar players) and repeat testing. 'Honeeyyyy..come listen..'

**sgosnell** · 06-09-2019, 08:35 PM

Why would anyone want to spend the money required to buy a Carr Rambler when you can buy something that sounds as good, and weighs much less, for much less money? Voodoo and religion. But that's redundant.

I have a Fender Vibrolux Reverb, and a Little Jazz. The Little Jazz sounds much better to my ears, and I can carry it easily. I haven't fired up the VR in a very long time, and don't intend to soon. It's like using a 1960 black and white TV to watch YouTube.

**Spook410** · 06-09-2019, 09:28 PM

I don't own a Carr Rambler. I wish I did. And I really don't think you're going to convince the thousands of very good players that do own them that they are fully and completely replicated by a $400 DV Mark.

You can think it's in our heads because we hear something you don't. And it's really a moot point. If we think it is... it is.

**Jonathan0996** · 06-09-2019, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

To be fair though I wouldn't consider cranked Deluxe Reverb clean sound

Nope; nor would I.

**Stringswinger** · 06-09-2019, 10:11 PM

I have two tube amps and 4 solid state amps. The SS amps are lighter and generally more reliable and do sound quite good. But TBH, I do hear a difference (and given truth serum I would admit a preference for tubes) and that is why a couple of tube amps remain in my stable. Turning 62 this year, I am pretty sure that the tube amps will only go to gigs where a) I can park my car and b) the walk from my car to the bandstand is not a great distance.

**jzucker** · 06-09-2019, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

I'm wanting to try one of the DV Mark Little Jazz amps for those times when light weight is really important. Recordings certainly sound good.

However.. you should get a Carr Rambler (in the name of broadening the base knowledge of jazz guitar players) and repeat testing. 'Honeeyyyy..come listen..'

love the tone of the carr but it doesn't have quite enough headroom for larger gigs. I've played through the impala and it does but it's more harsh sounding ala playing through a fender bassman head.

**emanresu** · 06-10-2019, 03:56 AM

Should suggest checking out Acoustic Image amps. Those are rather good. Able to convert people away from tubes

.

**jzucker** · 06-10-2019, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by sgosnell

Why would anyone want to spend the money required to buy a Carr Rambler when you can buy something that sounds as good, and weighs much less, for much less money? Voodoo and religion. But that's redundant.

The carr has a very unique sound. It's class A and responds to touch and dynamics COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY from almost anything else out there except maybe the morgan rca35r (which I own). Unfortunately, the class A amps don't have the headroom of a vibrolux reverb but the sound is very different. Carr makes a boutique version of that amp which is class a/b (more like the vibrolux reverb but with a bassman sized transformer) and it's got great headroom but it's also very spikey due to the increased headroom.

**jzucker** · 06-10-2019, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Should suggest checking out Acoustic Image amps. Those are rather good. Able to convert people away from tubes

.

I love acoustic image and had an endorsement with them for years. The one thing that always bothered me about them was that the treble control was in the wrong place. It's center freq is 10k which is above the range of a guitar speaker. I wish they'd move it down an octave. If you try to get that bright bensony tone for example, you just can't get it because of that whereas SS amps with a 4k-5k treble control can.

**medblues** · 06-10-2019, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

As for 'people can't tell the difference they just think they can..'

Easy test: Get a decent amp emulator and run to a decent powered speaker. Switch between Vox, Fender, and Marshall sounds. Hear the difference? Yea. It's not hard. Now, imagine if there were a 'SS' setting to compare to. It's the character of the sound.. not the EQ setting.

And maybe you can't hear it. Good. Will save your back. But don't say the rest of us can't hear the difference between a SS and tube amp. Maybe a few of the current generation which are working to copy a tube amp sound are close. But not the old SS amps which sound sterile and quite different.

I am curious about what you would say to people who claim to hear the difference between 6L6s and EL34 tubes or paper oil capacitors vs ceramic capacitors. That they hear something you can't hear ?

**jzucker** · 06-10-2019, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by medblues

I am curious about what you would say to people who claim to hear the difference between 6L6s and EL34 tubes or paper oil capacitors vs ceramic capacitors. That they hear something you can't hear ?

i hear a diff between 6L6 and EL34 tubes. Doesn't mean I could tell them apart in a blindfold test but within my playing, they react and feel different. Sometimes feel is an important component of tone. I draw the line at hearing the difference between batteries as eric johnson says he does...

**jpb** · 06-10-2019, 07:01 AM

For me it is not so much the sound of an amp but the "feel". while I'm able to dial in a good clean sound with my DV Mark Micro 50 into the 2x10 Legends 1058 of my Vibrolux Reverb, when I plug the VR it simply ''feels'' better. All still in the clean mode (swing/bebop, at home or small/medium venues, no PA). Tube/Speaker swapping and finding the right ones that work for you is also important IMO

**jzucker** · 06-10-2019, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by jpb

For me it is not so much the sound of an amp but the "feel". while I'm able to dial in a good clean sound with my DV Mark Micro 50 into the 2x10 Legends 1058 of my Vibrolux Reverb, when I plug the VR it simply ''feels'' better. All still in the clean mode (swing/bebop, at home or small/medium venues, no PA). Tube/Speaker swapping and finding the right ones that work for you is also important IMO

yes, it's about inspiration. For loud gigs, I actually run a SS amp into one of my 1x12 cabs in stereo with my fargen blackbird going into another 1x12. I use a reverb pedal to give a stereo spread. I realize that by the time the audience hears it, it's no longer stereo but it sounds and feels great on stage and is inspirational. The key is being inspired by your sound. If you are inspired, it doesn't matter whether it's tube, SS or whatever.

When folks put down Mike Stern because of his chorus sound, I always think about that. Mike *PLAYS* great and sounds inspired every time he plays. Part of the reason is that he loves his sound and it inspires him and allows him to play free without thinking about it. To *HIM* it gives the feel of a saxophone filling the room with sound and that's the most important thing I think. So, it doesn't matter whether the player can pick out the differences in a blindfold test. It only matters what inspires them to greatness...

**Stringswinger** · 06-10-2019, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

The key is being inspired by your sound. If you are inspired, it doesn't matter whether it's tube, SS or whatever.

..

This.

It matters not what guitar, amp, cord, effects, cables, strings, picks or straps you use if your rig does not inspire you to play your best.

The journey to finding the rig that inspires your best playing can be fun, frustrating, expensive and time consuming. The value of a forum like this is that we can all share what works for us in the hope that others can find out about possibilities that can be useful to them. Those who beat their chests online, proclaiming that their subjective opinions regarding gear are gospel truth have not only missed the point, but they have exposed themselves as insecure fools in a very public way.

**Jabberwocky** · 06-10-2019, 01:12 PM

All that is required is a great EQ pedal:

Tube vs good non-tube amp for cleans (and light overdrive with pedals)-qstrip-large-jpg

This thing opened up my eyes and unclogged the ears. Owe it to yourself to try one.

**rpjazzguitar** · 06-10-2019, 01:44 PM

I posted that I thought that the LJ sounded like my old Reverberocket.

But, when I replaced the 6L6s with EL84s (I think) in my Boogie Mark III (per factory instructions), the EL84s sounded overly bassy and I couldn't EQ it out. I doubt they stayed in the amp more than 10 minutes. So, I could hear that.

I completely and enthusiastically agree with the idea that you have to be inspired by your sound and I used to bring 2 amps and play in stereo for exactly that reason. I remember reading a GP interview in which a player said a certain guitar sounded "the way a guitar should sound". I think that's wisdom. At any moment I want to know exactly the sound I'm looking for.

I confess that I do not understand playing really loud on stage. If I have to turn up my amp that high, I'll be blasting myself out and probably have trouble hearing the rest of the band. My feeling is that if I have to play that loud, there ought to be a PA. Of course, sometimes there isn't, but I still play at a level where I can hear everything over my own amp.

One last point in this post. Yesterday I played a big band gig with the LJ, which has worked fine for it in the past. Yesterday, though, I had to comp through a forte passage with the piano tacet. It was the only time I wished I had a little more volume. It wasn't dimed (more like 2 o'clock). It was clean enough.

**jzucker** · 06-10-2019, 01:59 PM

Three questions:

what is an LJ?
How can you put EL84s in a Mk III?
Do you mean EL34s?

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I posted that I thought that the LJ sounded like my old Reverberocket.

But, when I replaced the 6L6s with EL84s (I think) in my Boogie Mark III (per factory instructions), the EL84s sounded overly bassy and I couldn't EQ it out. I doubt they stayed in the amp more than 10 minutes. So, I could hear that.

I completely and enthusiastically agree with the idea that you have to be inspired by your sound and I used to bring 2 amps and play in stereo for exactly that reason. I remember reading a GP interview in which a player said a certain guitar sounded "the way a guitar should sound". I think that's wisdom. At any moment I want to know exactly the sound I'm looking for.

I confess that I do not understand playing really loud on stage. If I have to turn up my amp that high, I'll be blasting myself out and probably have trouble hearing the rest of the band. My feeling is that if I have to play that loud, there ought to be a PA. Of course, sometimes there isn't, but I still play at a level where I can hear everything over my own amp.

One last point in this post. Yesterday I played a big band gig with the LJ, which has worked fine for it in the past. Yesterday, though, I had to comp through a forte passage with the piano tacet. It was the only time I wished I had a little more volume. It wasn't dimed (more like 2 o'clock). It was clean enough.

**No_Jazz_Guitarist** · 06-10-2019, 02:35 PM

I own a Peavey Bandit MIC Red Stripe & a Polytone Mini Brute 1.
None have the original speakers in them:
Peavey - Jensen Jet Tornado Classic 12", 100 watts, 8 ohms

Polytone - Celestion G12-100, 100 watts, 8 ohms (very big magnet).

I own nothing but solid state and has never tried a tube amp.

In my small collection, nothing gives as warm a sound as the Polytone.
The sound isn’t as clear & defined as on the Peavey, but the bass is really good.

I’m an ‘at home’ player only & I don't like to play very loud.

**Stringswinger** · 06-10-2019, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Three questions:

what is an LJ?
How can you put EL84s in a Mk III?
Do you mean EL34s?

I am sure that Rick meant EL-34's. You would need to do some mods to a Mark III to use EL-84's, but it probably could be done with Yellow Jacket sockets

Yellow Jackets Tube Converters | Yellow Jackets

LJ obviously refers to the DV Mark Little Jazz

**Tal_175** · 06-10-2019, 03:15 PM

I think LJ is DV Little Jazz.

**vintagelove** · 06-10-2019, 03:41 PM

Talking about/comparing “tube” vs SS, is just silly.

There are more than a few design characteristics in tube amps that can make the difference subtle, or worlds apart.

The day anything SS sound like my 64 super reverb, I’ll literally buy two. Until then, I can use both, but can’t live with modelers.

**geogio** · 06-10-2019, 04:23 PM

A Roland JC circuit with the grease rolled off sounds pretty clean. But I have touch of tinnitus so...

**Spook410** · 06-10-2019, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by medblues

I am curious about what you would say to people who claim to hear the difference between 6L6s and EL34 tubes or paper oil capacitors vs ceramic capacitors. That they hear something you can't hear ?

I would consider what I can hear rather than worrying about what they can hear. And I would not claim they cannot hear something because I can't hear it.

**geogio** · 06-10-2019, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by vintagelove

There are more than a few design characteristics in tube amps that can make the difference subtle, or worlds apart.

The day anything SS sound like my 64 super reverb, I’ll literally buy two. Until then, I can use both, but can’t live with modelers.

Yeah my Deluxe Reverb died way before my mini brute ever did. But now my mini is down too and I just can I find anybody that can do a reliable fix ... but there are tube kits out there that might be worth a look.