How to get a great jazz guitar tone

[teeps]

Yes, picking position technique maybe the most important thing afterall. The amplifier settings might vary from recording to recording.

[marcwhy]

Hey Mia - welcome to the Forum!

[Beware going down the gear rabbit hole, especially as a new (to jazz) player!!]

Since you are new to jazz, though, someone "holding your hand" is not a bad idea! I would hope you have a teacher, so ask him/her if you can bring your amp to your next lesson, and spend time together dialing in a nice sound! As Tony said above, some tone is in the hands, but still, putting your Line 6 on "crunch" mode and cranking the EQs all the way will not give you a pleasant "Wes" sound , so knowing your gear is critical, too.

Spend some time on this Forum -- lots of good info from good people! -- and spend more time in the practice room and playing with other jazzers. And have fun!

Marc

[Ray175]

In summary :

• On the amp
  
  • very little reverb
  • almost no overdrive - enough to focus midrange
  • reduce treble
  • play with mid and bass to taste
  
  
• On the guitar
  
  • use neck pickup
  • roll off the tone to taste
  • play near the neck
  • make sure you have quality pickups - P90s or humbuckers to taste
  
  
• Strings
  
  • flatwound
  • preferably 12s to get a fuller sound (forget full tone stringbending)
  
  
• pedals aren't used a lot in classic jazz, but if the above points don't help, a good eq pedal will help you correct what your amp and guitar controls can't do

In practice it's possible to get a good jazz tone out of most types of guitars - see Tim Lerch's Youtube videos, but it requires a solid control of amp, guitar and technique

[rpjazzguitar]

I've never heard anybody get Wes' tone out of anything but an L5. I suspect that other 25.5 scale archtops with humbuckers may be able to do it, but I doubt you can get that particular sound out of a shorter scale guitar or a single coil pickup.

I'd be looking at the guitar before I looked at the amp and, yes, a lot of Wes' tone was in his touch.

[Litterick]

Listen to what the man said:

Well, as you know, all amplifiers have different peaks, tonewise. That's one reason why I never want to go into the electronic end of it. I mean, for pick-ups, you've even got a resistor for your controls, man. If you're going to count on one, you've got to count on everything. If the sound has to be that fine - whew! you're in trouble. Search for the sound you want, but give your self reasonable space within it. You have to find the instrument you want first. This is much more important than the amplifier. You've got to feel comfortable. As far as the pickup's concerned, you could check that out with your amplifier. It shouldn't take you that long, because your concern is not all amplification. If you spend too much time trying to find out what bar does this, or what pick-up does that, you'll be getting away from the axe. Your first concern should be what you hear, what you're producing on your instrument. All this other stuff is secondary. I'm concerned about my set-up, but up to a certain level I always give it a lot of play. I got a standard box - I don't never want nothing special. I want it just as standard as I can get it. Then, if I drop my box, I can borrow somebody else's. Like, if I've only got one amp, with the precise sound, and it falls off on the floor - I don't have no job. And if they want to get with Charlie Christian - he had tape all on his box and everything. They tell me the controls and the tail-piece had fallen off, and he would be taping up holes, and things. Nobody wants that. That would look too bad. But you heard what he did with it.

[Spook410]

Hope you don't take any one post too seriously.. including this one. In the end we stumble through the fog before arriving at a collection of tones we like. Takes time and money. Not that advice doesn't help. It does. But some say 3 and some say 11.. and they are both right.

Many want a particular guitar and particular amp and are looking for one iconic thing they heard a great player do. They spend several thousands to get there which, considering the price of a good cello, is not too bad. And achieving that sound makes them happy. Others, and I'm in this camp, play several different guitars, amps, and apply different pedals. Daily if you're lucky. Lots of different sounds. Strats, carved hollow body archtops, flat tops, oval holes, semi-hollows, acoustic amps, traditional tube amps, amps in the digital age of whatever you want. And then there's strings, picks, and technique. They're all different and they don't sound the same. Which is good.

In spite of all the talk of technique, your rig is going to sound like an Eastman AR371 and Line 6 amp. Not like an L5 through a vintage Fender Twin. Not even if Wes played it. But it can have a range of good sounds. I would try setting it up to sound as acoustic/woody as possible. Heavier strings. Sparkly clean and clear amp setting with reduced mids. Then ask yourself as you play what you might want more or less of. Usually it will sound too thin and/or too electric. Try using your fingers instead of a pick. And be patient. It gets better. And while the path to tone is slippery and expensive, it's also a lot of fun.

[Litterick]

For what it is worth, the Julie London song is on her first album, ’Julie is Her Name' ( Liberty 1955), and that is Howard Roberts playing. You can read all about his guitars and amps on the University of Toronto site maintained by Mike Evans. The guitars would cost a fortune to buy, and original Benson amps are hard to find.

I think the search for tone is a waste of time and a distraction from playing. Those classic songs were recorded by highly skilled engineers on analogue equipment in some of the world’s best studios. It is unlikely that you would be able to replicate the sound at home on a modern guitar amplifier.

However, turning up the mid and turning down the bass and treble produces a nice tone on most amps, at no cost.

[gitman]

Depending on where you live I'd suggest you go out and listen to the jazz players in your city/region to check out their technique AND ASK THEM TO SHOW YOU ! The more you learn about guitars, amps, EQ, pickups, strings, picks and picking technique the easier it will get to dial in your favorite tone.
There is no quick and easy method BUT : you're on your way and the journey never ends ....

[rpjazzguitar]

I have fallen in love with somebody else's tone several times in my life. Twice, I went out and bought the same gear.

Neither time did I get the result I wanted.

Getting a specific sound requires a combination of guitar, effects, amp, touch, playing style and maybe recording technique (although the top guys sound like themselves live in my experience).

[Spook410]

<snip>

I think the search for tone is a waste of time and a distraction from playing..

However, turning up the mid and turning down the bass and treble produces a nice tone on most amps, at no cost.

An example of the many different opinions you will encounter. I find gear/tone/stuff to be an interesting and fun part of the hobby. Some find it to be a distraction.

And I absolutely hate the tone you get turning up the mids. I like acoustic/woody.. not punchy and/or muddy.

So in the end you're stuck with your own ears and gear. And getting your ears to pick out what's what and why is lot harder than you would think.

[neatomic]

For what it is worth, the Julie London song is on her first album, ’Julie is Her Name' ( Liberty 1955), and that is Howard Roberts playing. You can read all about his guitars and amps on the University of Toronto site maintained by Mike Evans. The guitars would cost a fortune to buy, and original Benson amps are hard to find.

sorry, but that's barney kessel on julie is her name...

and besides, benson amps didn't come about till the late 60's or early 70's...howard roberts used a gibson amp in the 50's (& who knows what else...he was a known experimenter and gear tweaker/swapper)




cheers

[neatomic]

ps- to the op

both tracks mentioned were cut long before the advent of solid state amps!!!...you need tube power!!!

the tweed fender deluxes are known to break up fairly quickly..so you get a little bit of edge on your notes...a growl...look at small tube combos...maybe even octal preamp tube amps like vintage47

cheers

[John A.]

Many sources say Wes used Kenny Burrell's ES 175 (p90's) or maybe his L7 (CC up) and probably the studio's tweed deluxe on "The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery". So I'd start with a tweed model on the line6, and the tone down about halfway on the guitar. I doubt you can exactly nail Wes's tone without playing with your thumb, but you shouldn't meed a new amp to get a good sound.

John

[citizenk74]

Please be aware that what you are pursuing is an illusion. The sound on a recording has been massaged in multiple ways and masks the fact that your perceived tone is a result of whatever is coming off your speaker in the context of a whole lot of other inputs. The fact is, your drummer and your bassist will affect your ambient tone as much as any knob-twirling you do. On the gig, be grateful if you can hear yourself. And if you can, the odds are good you're playing too loud.

[Litterick]

sorry, but that's barney kessel on julie is her name...

and besides, benson amps didn't come about till the late 60's or early 70's...howard roberts used a gibson amp in the 50's (& who knows what else...he was a known experimenter and gear tweaker/swapper)

wes was using kenny burrells gear on the track mentioned by op-In Your Own Sweet Way -...a fender tweed deluxe and gibby L7

I’ll get my coat.

[neatomic]

Please be aware that what you are pursuing is an illusion. The sound on a recording has been massaged in multiple ways and masks the fact that your perceived tone is a result of whatever is coming off your speaker in the context of a whole lot of other inputs.

absolutely!!!

a word to the wise!!

cheers

[neatomic]

I’ll get my coat.

and i'll hold it for you to get your arms through my friend...no foul...we all learn from each other...

happy 2020

cheers

[Longways to Go]

In summary :

• On the amp
  
  • very little reverb
  • almost no overdrive - enough to focus midrange
  • reduce treble
  • play with mid and bass to taste
  
  
• On the guitar
  
  • use neck pickup
  • roll off the tone to taste
  • play near the neck
  • make sure you have quality pickups - P90s or humbuckers to taste
  
  
• Strings
  
  • flatwound
  • preferably 12s to get a fuller sound (forget full tone stringbending)
  
  
• pedals aren't used a lot in classic jazz, but if the above points don't help, a good eq pedal will help you correct what your amp and guitar controls can't do

In practice it's possible to get a good jazz tone out of most types of guitars - see Tim Lerch's Youtube videos, but it requires a solid control of amp, guitar and technique

I think Ray175 is sending you in the right direction.
I wouldn't worry too much about new pickups or flatwound strings to get started.

[arielcee]

I'd say if it doesn't end up fruitful, scrap the spider and look for a fender or fender-type if your going for more clarity ala Wes iyosw. Fender HRD, Yamaha G50ii, Peavey Classic, etc...

Did wes use an L-5 on Incredible Jazz Guitar or was it an es-125?

[cosmic gumbo]

Folks, could it be as simple as changing out the stock rosewood bridge saddle on the Eastman AR371CE with a TOM with metal saddles? That ought to move the tone of the guitar in the direction the OP is looking for.

[Litterick]

Thank you. And a happy New Year to you.

[p1p]

I've given up trying to get recorded tones EXACTLY. I think the way they were recorded alters the tone more than you think..the room, the mic etc. A lot of good suggestions here to get you in the ballpark though. For Wes' tone, it's kind of a no brainer, but try using your thumb and an L5 or similar big archtop with humbucker. Guessing he keeps tone at 10.

[teeps]

... and to MiaHatesJazz, welcome to the forum, happy NGD. As you see, sometimes an apparently simple question can have quite complex answers. I personally think most of what is proposed here are good proposals, even those quite different from mine. In the end this is because only your ears can judge what sounds right to your ears.

You have the best approach from the start by describing the sound characteristics you want. The remaining part is how to realize those characteristics with your gear.

It could be fun to hear which kind of guitar/amp setting you end up with.

[Longways to Go]

Regarding gear, and perhaps the desire to buy stuff,
I think the Line 6 is the most obvious "not jazz" part of your current set up. I'm sure it's got plenty of jazz tones in it, but it's not your typical go-to jazz amp. So if you want to spend some christmas cash a new amp would be fun. I like the small tube amp idea.

Regarding the AR371, it's a nice guitar -- not the greatest pickup -- so there I said it.

Someone else mentioned the idea of fingerpicking & I second that idea too. Also, if you play with picks, the thin picks don't lend themselves to a thick jazzy tone for many players. Something like a D'andrea Pro Plec (my personal fave) or a Dunlop jazz can change your tone A LOT. Picks are much cheaper to experiment with than amps & guitars

[mr. beaumont]

With modeling amps, I tend to get the best "classic" jazz tones by using the crunch channel and setting the gain low, so that only the very hardest hit notes have a little "grit" to them.

As for EQ, Generally I boost mids and cut highs a bit. Bass is always "to taste," depending on the room. I usually keep the tone all the way up on my guitars, but run the volume a little short of all the way up.

What kind of strings are you using?

I wouldn't give up on that amp just yet. I've gotten a lot of good jazz tones with simple modelling gear. This is with a tiny little Roland Microcube, for example.

I've actually just recently upgraded to a Yamaha THR amp...it seems to record as well as the Microcube, but sounds better and fuller to me "in the room." So yeah, if I can get jazz tones out of those little things, I think you can get it with that Line 6. I guess my biggest advice would be to focus on sounding "good," and don't chase "exact tones."