Gibson Custom Archtops - 2019

[Tal_175]

On a tangential note, manufacturers actually set two price points. One is MSRP, which is sort of the upper limit price. The other one is not explicitly advertised to customers, only communicated to the dealers. I don't remember what it's called but it's the minimum price dealers are required to charge for their guitars that are in brand new condition. That, among other things, is meant to protect stores from online competition.

[Stringswinger]

On a tangential note, manufacturers actually set two price points. One is MSRP, which is sort of the upper limit price. The other one is not explicitly advertised to customers, only communicated to the dealers. I don't remember what it's called but it's the minimum price dealers are required to charge for their guitars that are in brand new condition. That, among other things, is meant to protect stores from online competition.

I have not reviewed the law on pricing, but a manufacturer certainly seems to be able to prevent discounting by it's dealers. It is too bad that we musicians are not wise enough to withhold our services unless we are paid fairly ($50 or less is not a particularly fair wage for a pro level music performance). Hence fine Gibson archtops keep pace with real inflation while musician wages do not.

If things continue at their present course, in due time a new Gibson L-5CES will cost $20,000 while jazz musicians will be paying for the "honor" of performing in public.

[vinnyv1k]

Fine archtops will never die but the amount of guitar players that really love them (us here) will. Jazz in the USA is on life support too. I have been playing Gibson’s since 1972. The prices never go down. Only up.

[Jazzstdnt]

Fine archtops will never die but the amount of guitar players that really love them (us here) will. Jazz in the USA is on life support too. I have been playing Gibson’s since 1972. The prices never go down. Only up.

Yeah agreed. Like Clapton said in the article about the guitar itself being dead, we need some new guitar heroes.

That early 60's critic who predicted that the Beatles would never get anywhere because "guitar bands were a thing of the past" (paraphrasing) was... a few decades ahead of his time. As of now, he'd be about right.

[Max405]

SS you are so right.
And don’t forget the responsible forestry laws we abide by that unfortunately, certain other countries are not affected by.

Probably 10K. With used Burst CES examples going for 6K-7.5K , I would say 10K for a brand new one is about right.

Factoring in real inflation (today's cost of tonewood and metal plus today's cost of skilled American labor), I would say that 10K is about right compared to the $800 or so price tag one of these would have been in the early 70's.

A Gibson sunburst L-5CES was expensive in 1972 and is still expensive today. The difference is that back then, cheap Asian made guitars were not very good, nor as cheap as they are today. So guys who have become used to reasonable quality Asian made guitars (made mostly by machines and near slave labor) bitch about the cost of Gibson guitars.

You get what you pay for, and bitching about it never helps.

[Greentone]

I think vinnyv1k is right. (Say, vinny, allowing for inflation shouldn't you be vinnyv10k by now?)

When the ES-175 gets discontinued, isn't the archtop--at least, the American-made archtop as we know it--dead?

[rlrhett]

I think vinnyv1k is right. (Say, vinny, allowing for inflation shouldn't you be vinnyv10k by now?)

When the ES-175 gets discontinued, isn't the archtop--at least, the American-made archtop as we know it--dead?

Only if you consider that none of the fine, handmade, luthier instruments are “arch tops”.


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[Jazzstdnt]

I think vinnyv1k is right. (Say, vinny, allowing for inflation shouldn't you be vinnyv10k by now?)

When the ES-175 gets discontinued, isn't the archtop--at least, the American-made archtop as we know it--dead?

I'd say no, because there is only one L5, and just about everything else stemmed from it.

[jads57]

Well seems like the $50 gig hit a nerve with some of you as well. So sad that fine archtop guitars are relegated to such few situations in music any more . And with the cost of them no doubt they're not likely to make a comeback with younger musicians.
After all they are tools to make great music with.

[Gitfiddler]

Taking in all of the comments about the high cost of Gibson archtops, it makes it even more sweet when an artist still uses them in the studio these days for all the world to hear and appreciate.

[jads57]

I don't think George Benson could sound bad on a bad day on a terrible cheap guitar !

[Bebop Tom]

Taking in all of the comments about the high cost of Gibson archtops, it makes it even more sweet when an artist still uses them in the studio these days for all the world to hear and appreciate.

That was recorded 20 years ago.

[BigMikeinNJ]

so what ?? The guitar is likely a early 70s Johnny Smith.

I believe Gibson and Heritage are quietly giving up on arch tops altogether. Making used examples in good To prime condition much more desirable to us.

That was recorded 20 years ago.

[Stringswinger]

so what ?? The guitar is likely a early 70s Johnny Smith.

I believe Gibson and Heritage are quietly giving up on arch tops altogether. Making used examples in good To prime condition much more desirable to us.

Mike,

Gibson and Heritage are in the business of selling guitars for a profit. When archtops come back in style (that might happen some day, who knows? It has happened before), they will ramp up production to meet the demand. Until then, they will produce only a scant few as needed. Bob Benedetto's book and video has spawned a plethora of luthiers producing archtop guitars and the market is (at the moment) flooded. Particularly considering all of the reasonably high quality, low cost Asian made archtops that are out there, it would be foolish for Gibson and Heritage to expend resources for this diminishing market.

It ain't like a guy who wants an archtop cannot find one. EBay, Reverb and your local Craigslist have archtops for sale every day, lots of them in fact. And if someone needs a brand new Gibson or Heritage archtop, those can be had, so long as one is willing to pay a price that makes those companies a fair profit.

Things are as they should be. Well almost. Gibson needs to make a new 175 available in their build to order program. And I believe in due time, they will.

[Max405]

SS, Hopefully the 175 you speak of will be modeled after the Joe Pass Prototype that you and I were both fortunate to see in our boy Dougies hands.. And they should call it, The Ultimate Joe Pass..
And Mikey, It amazes me that the Absolute Benson album was recorded 20 years ago. And Joe Sample has been gone for 5 years.

Archtop Guitars to me, will always be the Ultimate Guitar, that the ultimate type of music is played on. Yes our music can be played on any guitar. But no other kind of guitar commands the type of presence and looks as exclusive as the Archtop Guitar does. And our music just sounds right, when played on an Archtop.

JD

[BigMikeinNJ]

I know Benson has more guitars than I have hairs on my head but wonder if that's the same Johnny Smith that is on the cover of Breezin'

Big

Taking in all of the comments about the high cost of Gibson archtops, it makes it even more sweet when an artist still uses them in the studio these days for all the world to hear and appreciate.

[vinnyv1k]

Frankly I am not seeing any smoking deals on used archtops right now. In fact the used prices are on the rise.

[Gitpicker]

SS, Hopefully the 175 you speak of will be modeled after the Joe Pass Prototype that you and I were both fortunate to see in our boy Dougies hands.. And they should call it, The Ultimate Joe Pass..
And Mikey, It amazes me that the Absolute Benson album was recorded 20 years ago. And Joe Sample has been gone for 5 years.

Archtop Guitars to me, will always be the Ultimate Guitar, that the ultimate type of music is played on. Yes our music can be played on any guitar. But no other kind of guitar commands the type of presence and looks as exclusive as the Archtop Guitar does. And our music just sounds right, when played on an Archtop.

JD

Yes! This is the guitar they need to bring back into the fold. I don't care what they call it, I'd buy one. I couldn't get John Pisano to part with his

[Max405]

That is about as cool as it gets around here Doug.
That is the guitar that NEEDS to help put archtop guitars back in a prominent position in the market.
The Joe Pass, the Tal Farlow and the Wes Montgomery. And, oh yeah, the Johnny Smith.
Or we could just wait for the Doug Martin..

[Gitpicker]

That is about as cool as it gets around here Doug.
That is the guitar that NEEDS to help put archtop guitars back in a prominent position in the market.
The Joe Pass, the Tal Farlow and the Wes Montgomery. And, oh yeah, the Johnny Smith.
Or we could just wait for the Doug Martin..

Ha!! You're funny Joe
But yes absolutely agreed! Joe's 175, man what a great guitar... I couldn't imagine any of us here playing that thing and not falling in love. There are great guitars and then a few are especially "memorable". Of course, just knowing it was Joe's and that it is now with John Pisano also gives it a special kind of mojo! But yeah, played like butter. I was like a giddy little school girl playing that guitar.

[Stringswinger]

Yes! This is the guitar they need to bring back into the fold. I don't care what they call it, I'd buy one. I couldn't get John Pisano to part with his

That is a picture of two great jazz guitarists (who are just a few generations apart. It is great that the tradition continues).

Doug, if Gibson made that guitar available, there are quite a few of us who would buy one. But there are probably not enough of us to make production of that guitar commercially feasible. And there might be some intellectual property rights regarding that guitar that belong to the Estate of Joe Pass (and that estate has been in conflict since Joe Pass died).

[Gitpicker]

That is about as cool as it gets around here Doug.
That is the guitar that NEEDS to help put archtop guitars back in a prominent position in the market.
The Joe Pass, the Tal Farlow and the Wes Montgomery. And, oh yeah, the Johnny Smith.
Or we could just wait for the Doug Martin..

Oh and I love that the pickup is up against the fingerboard where it should be! (IMHO)

[Gitpicker]

That is a picture of two great jazz guitarists (who are just a few generations apart. It is great that the tradition continues).

Doug, if Gibson made that guitar available, there are quite a few of us who would buy one. But there are probably not enough of us to make production of that guitar commercially feasible. And there might be some intellectual property rights regarding that guitar that belong to the Estate of Joe Pass (and that estate has been in conflict since Joe Pass died).

True my friend, but we can dream can't we?

[Greentone]

I agree that all archtops stem from the L5. However, the standard, "walk into the music store and walk out with an archtop jazz guitar" when I was growing up was the ES-175. It was the Les Paul/Stratocaster/Telecaster of jazz guitars. Everybody used it and it was the utilitarian jazz box--for decades.

The custom jobs abound, but when the "standard" jazz guitar disappears--i.e., discontinuation of the ES-175--an era is over. If Fender ever stops producing Telecasters and Stratocasters, I'd say that the era of rock and roll (and rock, for that matter) is over, too.

If Martin ever stops producing flattop guitars...well, that's the apocalypse, I guess.

[Dennis D]

I agree that all archtops stem from the L5. However, the standard, "walk into the music store and walk out with an archtop jazz guitar" when I was growing up was the ES-175. It was the Les Paul/Stratocaster/Telecaster of jazz guitars. Everybody used it and it was the utilitarian jazz box--for decades.

The custom jobs abound, but when the "standard" jazz guitar disappears--i.e., discontinuation of the ES-175--an era is over. If Fender ever stops producing Telecasters and Stratocasters, I'd say that the era of rock and roll (and rock, for that matter) is over, too.

If Martin ever stops producing flattop guitars...well, that's the apocalypse, I guess.

I agree with pretty much all of what you said GT, and I'd like to add this. I always saw what I thought were a lot of pro's playing 175's on gigs, until one of them told me he was actually playing an L-4, and if he had a choice, he'd always look for one of those instead.

I wish I'd have known about that model at that time, but I didn't and I'm guessing a lot of others didn't either. And for sure, from the '60's forward, because of their entry-level price, the 175's were always out, hanging on the music store wall, but the owner kept the ' good stuff ' in their cases in his office.