Is it easier to achieve a low action with thicker strings?

[znerken]

I have 10s on my Stratocaster, and I got to test an arch top with 13s. The action was heavenly low, and the guitar was insanely easy to play. Now since I got a 335 incoming, I want the store to change and setup the guitar with thicker strings, but I am unsure about 11, 12s or 13s. On Acoustics I think 12s are hard enough to play, but I just can’t get that feeling of that archtop with 13s out of my head. So easy to play. I feel my strats with 10s are a little flimsy.

By the way the arch top had round wounds.


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[rio]

Yes. More tension, narrower vibration so heavier strings will let you get lower action.


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[znerken]

Yes. More tension, narrower vibration so heavier strings will let you get lower action.


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Then why are people using 10s. Haha.


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[Jazzstdnt]

You may need a custom set, or not. I now use a custom set of TI's by buying a few single strings from Juststrings.com.

I used to buy round wound TI Benson 12s exclusively. Frankly they are a bit heavy for fast picking, but sound glorious. One can overcome the faster picking challenge with lots of practice but you have to dig in harder with heavier strings, and always will. There are no two ways about it.

And yes, my slightly thinner strings buzz more easily with low action, which I will not compromise on.

OTOH - I observe that when I turn the guitar up a bit louder I don't pick quite as hard, and hence reduce some buzzing. Lots of minute adjustments to make...

[ptchristopher3]

Broadly stated, yes. It is easier to get lower action with heavier strings.

But (and it is a big butt), this assumes all other things being equal, which is often not the case.

If you are an experienced session guitarist who plays with a remarkably controlled and light right hand, then there is a simple, and proportional, relationship between string tension and lowest practical action. So heavier strings will yield a lower practical action.

If you slash away at the strings until you feel a protesting resistance on the pick, then NOOOOOO - heavier strings will not give you a lower buzz-free action.

So a Jim Soloway or Howard Roberts player can use “14’s” and set the action way down on the deck.

Do you have their level of control? If so then YES, heavier strings absolutely can be balanced with proportionally lower action to the point that the fretting pressure needed with 14’s is the same as with 8’s.

Actually the 14’s will allow VERY slightly lower action since you can get by with less relief too.

The irony of simple Newtonian physics...

EDIT: It is even more ironic (I suppose) that a very controlled right hand technique works better with both very light and very heavy strings - albeit for different reasons.

[sgosnell]

IME, heavier strings make somewhat lower action possible. I tend to play with a rather light touch, and don't pound the strings unless I need to get volume from an acoustic. If you play with mostly heavy downstrokes, you may not be able to get the action as low as you like, but that happens with light or heavy strings. Pound on a .009 set, and they will vibrate all over the place. .013 sets will vibrate less with the same force input. Personally, I prefer .012 sets, as a compromise between tension and tone. That seems to be a very commonly offered set by most manufacturers, and probably is one of the more popular. But string gauge preference is mostly just a matter of personal taste.

[znerken]

IME, heavier strings make somewhat lower action possible. I tend to play with a rather light touch, and don't pound the strings unless I need to get volume from an acoustic. If you play with mostly heavy downstrokes, you may not be able to get the action as low as you like, but that happens with light or heavy strings. Pound on a .009 set, and they will vibrate all over the place. .013 sets will vibrate less with the same force input. Personally, I prefer .012 sets, as a compromise between tension and tone. That seems to be a very commonly offered set by most manufacturers, and probably is one of the more popular. But string gauge preference is mostly just a matter of personal taste.

I just felt so sad picking up my strat again after I played the arch top. 10's feel so toyish and flimsy. I guess .012 would be a good fit for a ES335. Even though the strat is brand new and setup by a professional, I would say 10 is harder to play due to the higher action. I mean the arch top had such low action that it looked like the strings touched all the frets.

[znerken]

Also my teacher forces me to have my left hand like many of the big jazz professionals(Peter Bernstein to name one). Fingers at an angle, first knuckle on the palm touching the fretboard and thumb over. I think it was easier to play this way with thicker strings. Don't know if that is just my imagination.

I have also always been a little embarrassed that I have to use a large XL jazzIII, but with thicker strings a smaller pick actually was a little easier? Haha, perhaps this is just all my imagination based on the lust for something new and a being a wannabe jazzer.

[339 in june]

Then why are people using 10s. Haha.


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Those are the people who want to bend .....

Haha

[ptchristopher3]

Those are the people who want to bend .....

Haha

Well yes.

Lighter strings can be bent to raise the pitch FAR easier than heavier.

This has its downsides.

For complex chord voicings you also have the problem of intonation errors with light strings (via accidental bends, amongst other issues) that you do not have with heavier strings.

[sgosnell]

With a guitar, everything is a compromise of some sort. And I mean everything. Some people prefer to compromise differently than others. That's why there are so many different types of gear for sale.

[rpjazzguitar]

Scale length is shorter on the 335. That means lower tension to get to the same pitch, assuming other things are equal.

Tailpiece design also matters. String length that can stretch but isn't part of the vibrating portion changes the feel.

That's all physics.

Subjectively speaking now, my impression is that the size/shape of the neck makes a bigger difference for me than the scale length. For me, thinner necks are easier to play.

[znerken]

Scale length is shorter on the 335. That means lower tension to get to the same pitch, assuming other things are equal.

Tailpiece design also matters. String length that can stretch but isn't part of the vibrating portion changes the feel.

That's all physics.

Subjectively speaking now, my impression is that the size/shape of the neck makes a bigger difference for me than the scale length. For me, thinner necks are easier to play.

So what gauge would you run on a 335 with 1963 neck?


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[D.G.]

In the past year I've moved down form 11's/12's to 10's on all my guitars. I prefer the tone. I also hit heavier than god -- gypsy technique doncha know -- and have zero trouble with intonation. Course, I've been at this guitar thing for a while now...

[znerken]

I have a chance to specify to Gibson what strings I want on my 335. I am planning on using Thomastik 12's, but I understand they are like 11's in tension. Would you tell Gibson to put 12 or 11s on it? I would imagine the most important part will be the nut slot, so they can put 12's, and then I can ask my shop to lower the action and correct the neck tension when they put on Thomastik 12's?

[znerken]

In the past year I've moved down form 11's/12's to 10's on all my guitars. I prefer the tone. I also hit heavier than god -- gypsy technique doncha know -- and have zero trouble with intonation. Course, I've been at this guitar thing for a while now...

The problem with 10's for me, with the recommended string height, is that it feels so flimsy, and as another user stated in a different thread: it feels like you have to push through a trampoline compared to thicker strings. 13's felt way easier to play with that impressive low action.

[sgosnell]

It makes no difference what strings Gibson puts on it. You're going to change strings many, many times, and probably try different gauges.

[znerken]

It makes no difference what strings Gibson puts on it. You're going to change strings many, many times, and probably try different gauges.

Well, less adjustments from 10s to 12, than from Gibson 12 to Thomastik 12?


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[Tom Karol]

I have roundwound 11's (plain 3rd) on my rock guitar, and roundwound 12's on my archtop and acoustic guitars. But I've played well set-up archtops with flatwound 13's that had astonishing low buzz-free action. The combination of a narrower vibration pattern and smooth surface facilitates it I think.

[icr]

If you have thin strings you can increase the tension to match that of a thicker strings and see for yourself. You can use an on-line string tension calculator to see which pitch a 0.010 string needs to be tuned to have the same tension as a 0.013, etc.

Many people want a lower action with thick strings because not only are they under more tension they are less elastic and harder to press down because they stretch less too.

[Stringswinger]

I have had guitars with low action with every string gauge from 8's to 14's. A lot depends on the guitar and the skill of the person setting it up.

That said, playing with light strings (anything below 12's) will require a lighter touch with low action on a short scale guitar. You can run 10's on a Gypsy guitar (26.25 scale) and have a very different experience with 10's on an ES-175 (24.75 scale)

[ESCC]

My experience has lead me to prefer TI Swing 12s on my two archtops and D'Addario pure nickel 11s on my semi-hollow and solid bodies.

[zigzag]

I use T-I flat (Swing) 11s (JS111) on my 335. T-Is tend to have a little less overall string tension than most flats, and those 11s have about the same tension as D'Addario round 11s with a wound third (EXL115W). I bend on that 335, and have not noticed that it's particularly hard, but I rarely bend more than a whole step.

That 335 as stocked did not intonate with those strings, even reversing the saddles, and I had to get a wider bridge to accommodate. I don't know if that is a problem inherent in that model or just a flaw in that specific guitar, but otherwise, I'm happy with the sound and playability.

[GNAPPI]

I knew a guy who couldn't keep his git in tune with chords or stop it from buzzing, every luthier and tech said there was no problem with it of course after charging him to rub some snake oil on it.

I watched him play one day and started to chuckle and he stopped pissed off asking what was so funny.

I took the git, played the same barre chords and he yelped, "IT STAYED IN TUNE and NO BUZZ"

Then I showed him how his left hand was bending all six strings whilst pressing down on the strings making it go out of tune and my lighter right hand touch was not as violent as his.

Problem solved with a couple of months of re-training :-)

[Dennis D]

I have had guitars with low action with every string gauge from 8's to 14's. A lot depends on the guitar and the skill of the person setting it up.

That said, playing with light strings (anything below 12's) will require a lighter touch with low action on a short scale guitar. You can run 10's on a Gypsy guitar (26.25 scale) and have a very different experience with 10's on an ES-175 (24.75 scale)

I'm glad someone mentioned scale length. Using 13's, I've had better luck getting low action with short scale guitars. Going to a long scale guitar, I couldn't get 13's to play or feel right and had to go back to 12's.

Now - - about those skinny Gibson frets...I found out they don't help setup and playability much either......

.....just my experience.....