Myth of greater volume of sound produced by roundwound bronze strings vs flatwound ni

[ThatRhythmMan]

I’ve long had a suspicion that the much repeated assertion that an acoustic archtop strung with bronze roundwound strings is louder than one strung with flatwound nickel steel strings isn’t really based in fact, but only in perception. It’s also usually said that any roundwound string will be louder than a flatwound string made of the same material.

I finally got out an SPL meter and a 1959 Gibson Super 400. I used string gauges that were as close to a match as I could get, actually giving a slight edge to the bronze set which was D’Addario 80/20, since some of its strings were a little heavier. The flatwound set was TI Jazz Swings. I played the same chord progressions and single note lines on each guitar under the same conditions. There was simply no difference as measured by the SPL meter with the average dB readings being almost identical through each test. Both string sets also showed a maximum reading of 95dB +/- 0.2dB through each of three passes through a chord progression.

Granted this is a very limited test using just two sets of strings on one guitar, but I feel like it’s pretty string evidence that this heavily touted belief is not based in fact, but in perceived differences. It’s very clear that the two types of strings have different frequency profiles for the wound strings. I believe that the tendency of the wound strings, particularly bronze sets, to emphasize higher frequencies results in a perception that the wound strings are louder than flats, when in fact they are not.

[Cunamara]

Perceived loudness is a product of psychoacoustics rather than sound pressure, if the latter is similar. The bronze strings may be louder at certain frequencies that the ear is more sensitive to.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Perceived loudness is a product of psychoacoustics rather than sound pressure, if the latter is similar. The bronze strings may be louder at certain frequencies that the ear is more sensitive to.

I agree. However, one of the reasons I have long wanted to do this is that I have never perceived a difference in loudness among these different string types. Interestingly, I have unusually extremely good hearing at high frequencies.

I think it may go beyond just sensitivity of the ear. It’s just speculation, but I think it’s likely more purely at the brain level.

[christianm77]

I’ve long had a suspicion that the much repeated assertion that an acoustic archtop strung with bronze roundwound strings is louder than one strung with flatwound nickel steel strings isn’t really based in fact, but only in perception. It’s also usually said that any roundwound string will be louder than a flatwound string made of the same material.

I finally got out an SPL meter and a 1959 Gibson Super 400. I used string gauges that were as close to a match as I could get, actually giving a slight edge to the bronze set which was D’Addario 80/20, since some of its strings were a little heavier. The flatwound set was TI Jazz Swings. I played the same chord progressions and single note lines on each guitar under the same conditions. There was simply no difference as measured by the SPL meter with the average dB readings being almost identical through each test. Both string sets also showed a maximum reading of 95dB +/- 0.2dB through each of three passes through a chord progression.

Granted this is a very limited test using just two sets of strings on one guitar, but I feel like it’s pretty string evidence that this heavily touted belief is not based in fact, but in perceived differences. It’s very clear that the two types of strings have different frequency profiles for the wound strings. I believe that the tendency of the wound strings, particularly bronze sets, to emphasize higher frequencies results in a perception that the wound strings are louder than flats, when in fact they are not.

Interesting. But if I can’t tell people off for stringing their acoustic archtops with flats, what will I do for fun?

PBs are IMO too bright for archtops. You do want something a lot more focussed in the midrange..... Martin retros, for instance.

Maybe flats would do well in groups because of their midrange focus.... room for further experimentation

One misgiving I have about flats is that my right hand attack would knacker the windings.

[sgosnell]

If your right-hand technique doesn't knacker the windings of round-wounds, I don't think it would have much effect on flat-wounds. Unless my understanding of the definition of 'knacker' is knackered.

[John A.]

Perceived loudness is a product of psychoacoustics rather than sound pressure, if the latter is similar. The bronze strings may be louder at certain frequencies that the ear is more sensitive to.

+ 1. Also, differences in how the two string types sustain and how they respond to different levels of picking/strumming/plucking energy, as well as the acoustic characteristics of the room where they're being played, and the other instruments involved.

Loudness is a complicated subject.

John

[JazzNote]

I finally got out an SPL meter and a 1959 Gibson Super 400. I used string gauges that were as close to a match as I could get, actually giving a slight edge to the bronze set which was D’Addario 80/20, since some of its strings were a little heavier. The flatwound set was TI Jazz Swings. I played the same chord progressions and single note lines on each guitar under the same conditions. There was simply no difference as measured by the SPL meter with the average dB readings being almost identical through each test. Both string sets also showed a maximum reading of 95dB +/- 0.2dB through each of three passes through a chord progression.

Great topic!
I'm curious which gauge strings you used and what frequency weighing you set the spl meter to?
What are A, C & Z Frequency Weightings? - NoiseNews
Thanks

[QAman]

Every time I’ve tried flats - I quickly took them off. To me - Flats are purely a “plug in” experience. Acoustically - they exhibit a quick decay with less sustain- and provide this dead thump which bebop players love. They also inherently apply more string tension on the guitar top plate -which allows for a very low action without buzzing.

I’ve just never found them too appealing - but then again - I rarely plug in. I’m probably the minority here since most of you guys use TI flats.

As for volume - this is an interesting test- since I would have thought the opposite. But like a few people mentioned -its the frequency and sensorial response which our brains recognizes- and can be misleading.

In fact - sometimes I record ( acoustically) on a guitar which I think is loud , yet when I record on a quieter guitar ( same settings ) - I’m surprised with the outcome.

Interesting post - thanks for taking the time to perform the test.

[christianm77]

If your right-hand technique doesn't knacker the windings of round-wounds, I don't think it would have much effect on flat-wounds. Unless my understanding of the definition of 'knacker' is knackered.

It does make a difference on some string types - ti bebops for instance

[ThatRhythmMan]

Great topic!
I'm curious which gauge strings you used and what frequency weighing you set the spl meter to?
What are A, C & Z Frequency Weightings? - NoiseNews
Thanks

The strings were:
Bronze 80/20 round - D’Addario EJ11 (.012-.053)
Nickel steel flat - Hybrid of TI JS112 and JS113

I used both Z and C frequency weightings. The results only differed in that the dB level was slightly less with C than Z. The strings did not show a comparative difference with either frequency weighting.

[deacon Mark]

I have said this before but I do not care for bronze strings acoustically. I use regular nickle silver roundwound strings for both applications in playing. I do at the moment have a set of d'addario flatwounds on my Hollenbeck and Qman is dead on, for bebop electric lines they sound a bit better. I will probably go back to the regular roundwounds when these wear out, it is not huge difference but some. I just see no point in an acoustic archtop having flats but that is me. My using them on the Hollenbeck was another attempt at trying them again after years of no flatwounds. Also I am into this crazy single line bebop phase of playing. I am trying really extend my single line bop playing to focus on interesting lines. The flats at this point give the excuse to keep at it.

This is another interesting thing I have noticed. Since I normally play acoustic like Qman, too lazy to plug in my chops are different. I have doing a bit more set up and fret work and I find that it is actually hard for me to now play a low action Les Paul/fender set up. Guys bring guitars me to work on and I am amazed they can play them, it is almost like zero feeling under the fingers. I have to actually go back and practice using a light touch. My brain and hand are easily confused. One thing I always admired about Pat Martino...…...he plays with power under the fingers......and he is a little fellow too.

[Stringswinger]

I’ve long had a suspicion that the much repeated assertion that an acoustic archtop strung with bronze roundwound strings is louder than one strung with flatwound nickel steel strings isn’t really based in fact, but only in perception. It’s also usually said that any roundwound string will be louder than a flatwound string made of the same material.

I finally got out an SPL meter and a 1959 Gibson Super 400. I used string gauges that were as close to a match as I could get, actually giving a slight edge to the bronze set which was D’Addario 80/20, since some of its strings were a little heavier. The flatwound set was TI Jazz Swings. I played the same chord progressions and single note lines on each guitar under the same conditions. There was simply no difference as measured by the SPL meter with the average dB readings being almost identical through each test. Both string sets also showed a maximum reading of 95dB +/- 0.2dB through each of three passes through a chord progression.

Granted this is a very limited test using just two sets of strings on one guitar, but I feel like it’s pretty string evidence that this heavily touted belief is not based in fact, but in perceived differences. It’s very clear that the two types of strings have different frequency profiles for the wound strings. I believe that the tendency of the wound strings, particularly bronze sets, to emphasize higher frequencies results in a perception that the wound strings are louder than flats, when in fact they are not.

Let's face it TRM, you and I are a minority of two in our preference for TI flats on our acoustic archtops.

[christianm77]

I know the feeling. I can't do rock setup guitars. .11s are as light as I go lol.

[christianm77]

Let's face it TRM, you and I are a minority of two in our preference for TI flats on our acoustic archtops.

Urgghhh, you're one of THEM.

Actually this thread is encouraging me to maybe give them a try. I reckon it would take me one dance band gig to annihilate them, though, even if I liked the sound... Fun to mix it up though.

[JazzNote]

The strings were:
Bronze 80/20 round - D’Addario EJ11 (.012-.053)
Nickel steel flat - Hybrid of TI JS112 and JS113

I used both Z and C frequency weightings. The results only differed in that the dB level was slightly less with C than Z. The strings did not show a comparative difference with either frequency weighting.

I think it would be interesting to see the result of an A weighted measurement too as this is supposed to reflect the response of the human ear closest. (The A-weighting curve is used extensively for general purpose noise measurements but the C-weighting correlates better with the human response to high noise levels.)

[KirkP]

I’ve always though the main differences between flat vs roundwound were harmonic content, finger squeaks, and feel — not volume — but I appreciate the test result. My hunch is that on a given guitar, volume is primarily a function of string tension and how the sting is excited, not the type of winding. Also, our hearing has a built in compression that allows us to hear everything from a whisper to a roar, making our hearing relatively insensitive to small changes in volume. But our hearing is very sensitive to changes in frequency content. It would be interesting to compare the frequency spectra of flat vs roundwound strings (under identical conditions), but the results probably won’t be much of a surprise since we all can clearly hear that.

[skiboyny]

I wonder if the results would change as these strings age. The thomastik flats are pretty round wound sounding when new. Put some hours on both sets and try the test again.

I’ve long had a suspicion that the much repeated assertion that an acoustic archtop strung with bronze roundwound strings is louder than one strung with flatwound nickel steel strings isn’t really based in fact, but only in perception. It’s also usually said that any roundwound string will be louder than a flatwound string made of the same material.

I finally got out an SPL meter and a 1959 Gibson Super 400. I used string gauges that were as close to a match as I could get, actually giving a slight edge to the bronze set which was D’Addario 80/20, since some of its strings were a little heavier. The flatwound set was TI Jazz Swings. I played the same chord progressions and single note lines on each guitar under the same conditions. There was simply no difference as measured by the SPL meter with the average dB readings being almost identical through each test. Both string sets also showed a maximum reading of 95dB +/- 0.2dB through each of three passes through a chord progression.

Granted this is a very limited test using just two sets of strings on one guitar, but I feel like it’s pretty string evidence that this heavily touted belief is not based in fact, but in perceived differences. It’s very clear that the two types of strings have different frequency profiles for the wound strings. I believe that the tendency of the wound strings, particularly bronze sets, to emphasize higher frequencies results in a perception that the wound strings are louder than flats, when in fact they are not.

[Cavalier]

I'm wondering if you should test by string tension rather than diameter. Wouldn't a pre ground flat 12 be something like a 14? Science demands some answers!

[mr. beaumont]

Perceived loudness is the one that matters.

[KirkP]

I wonder if the results would change as these strings age. The thomastik flats are pretty round wound sounding when new. Put some hours on both sets and try the test again.

I think age & wear will cause the frequency spectrum to change but not volume, per the rational I posted above. A spectrum measurement before and after a few weeks use would be interesting.

[christianm77]

Perceived loudness is the one that matters.

Ahahahaha, but we all know how a guitar sounds on its own is a different thing to how it sounds in an ensemble.

[KirkP]

Perceived loudness is the one that matters.

Yes, and perceived loudness will change depending on what setting one is playing in. For example, a bright tone might help me cut through when playing solo in a noisy bar, but a darker tone might cut through better with a horn section. This might create the perception I’m playing louder even if a sound pressure meter says the volume is the same. I think that’s why I tend to prefer flat wounds in horn bands but round wounds in most other situations.

Another factor that just occurred to me is that our hearing is much more sensitive to frequencies around 3000 Hz than the lower frequencies where much of the guitar’s fundamental tones live. So, for example, if I’m playing a note at 1500 Hz, a small increase of frequency content an octave above may be perceived as a significant increase in volume when the power is actually unchanged.

[christianm77]

There needs to be Spectral Analysis...... It's all about the 500Hz area for me.....

[ThatRhythmMan]

I'm wondering if you should test by string tension rather than diameter. Wouldn't a pre ground flat 12 be something like a 14? Science demands some answers!

A big misconception is that TI Swings are ground, but the wrap is actually flat from the beginning.

[christianm77]

I think you can do that on Garageband?