Mark Campellone Acoustic Archtop

**grantc** · 09-25-2018, 08:32 AM

Does anyone on the forum play a Mark Campellone Acoustic Archtop in a Swing Band or maybe a smaller Swing type band and if so some feedback (no pun intended) would be appreciated.
How does it compare to an original acoustic L5 ?? might be a start.
I am seriously considering ordering one ASAP but I am not sure about the 3" depth that Mark recommends. I live in Australia so there is no chance of playing one first so???

Update.....

Thought I should clarify considering some of the comments so far (Thankyou BTW)

I want to play it acoustically, amplifying it using an Audio Technica Pro 70 or a DPA 4099 (I have both) plugged into a Henriksen BUD with a Ray Cabinet which I already have as well.
Jonathan Stout (Allen Ruess

) is my main inspiration and the sound of his current blonde L5, 1939-1940, is what I am trying to achieve, however I want a cutaway and I simply cannot justify the sums of money that are being for asked for an original L5 of that vintage. Hence my quest for a modern luthier like Mark Campellone.

**deacon Mark** · 09-25-2018, 09:11 AM

I have one but do no play in a big band as such but your question really has as much to do with the amplifier and set up. Feedback can be more on acoustic archtops but you must have an amp that can help you avoid this. I have a Clarus with Raezor's Edge twin 8 inch speakers. I can dial the amp to avoid feedback but if I plug into a Fender Twin it will be prone to more feedback. Then you have to sit in a spot around the amp that is best to avoid feedback..

Comparing feedback of a Campellone vs and L5 really is not something I think that is valid here. Maybe others will chime in with some help but you will not go wrong with a Campy.

**Stringswinger** · 09-25-2018, 11:33 AM

I see no reason why Mark could not build a guitar for acoustic big band work. Such a guitar would be built for that purpose. By the 50's, acoustic big band work had been replaced by electric archtops and all of the makers (Gibson, D'Angelico, Epiphone etc.) began building archtops with heavier tops that were meant to be amplified with floating pickups. Most modern archtops are built to this modern usage.

**Rob MacKillop** · 09-25-2018, 12:30 PM

If you commission him directly, he should make you what you want. I'm unclear as to whether you would be playing it purely acoustically, or with a floater. I told Frans Elferink I wanted a pure-acoustic guitar that would never have a pickup attached. He built me what I wanted, and it is superb. I'm sure Mark would do the same. But as you say you want one ASAP, you might be looking at the second-hand market...harder to be sure it's what you want.

**Jabberwocky** · 09-25-2018, 03:28 PM

grantc, 3" rim depth is the new de facto standard rim depth amongst US luthiers. From Steve Andersen to Bob Benedetto to Roger Borys to John Buscarino to William Comins to Mark Campellone, et alia, most would tell you that there is no need to build them any deeper. Mark Campellone used to make them 3.25" deep if the customer insisted on it but I think that he has put his foot down and makes no deeper than 3" at the rim these days. You could ask him.

The Gibson Johnny Smith has a 3" rim depth and 25" scale length. This influenced Bob Benedetto and those of the Benedetto school. Almost all archtops are played amplified these days, even acoustic ones, and it is felt that a 3" rim depth offers better bottom to top tonal balance for miking. Much less boomy in the bass, in other words.

When I ordered my two laminate guitars from Roger Borys, he recommended 2.75" rim depth and this was for good top to bottom tonal balance, miked.

If you have a chance to talk to Mark Campellone, ask for his thoughts on your requirements. He may just make one with a 3.25" rim depth for you if he feels your requirements justify it. In a modern setting where everything is miked though, I would urge caution with ordering one that is too deep. And if your requirements are 4 to the bar, perhaps a non-cutaway would do better than a cutaway. The extra chamber volume helps.

In my humble opinion.

**pcjazz** · 09-25-2018, 03:44 PM

It's not clear whether the OP intends to play without amplification in a big band setting, but if he does he should be aware that he won't be heard unless the drummer is using a small kit with old-style cymbals and skin heads and the bass player is using old-style gut strings. There are useful discussions of this topic on Jonathan Stout's Campus Five blog and on Michael Petterson's Freddie Green website. Both sites also discuss various techniques of micing suitable for band settings.

**campusfive** · 09-25-2018, 05:56 PM

I've only played one Campellone acoustic - it was a 17" L-5 style, no idea about the body depth.
My Eastman AR805 non cutaway smoked it acoustically. SMOKED IT.

If you're looking for pre-electric, pre-bop old school acoustic rhythm guitar, I don't know that Campellone would be the best choice.
The best ones I've played would be Trenier (assuming you went with one of his older school models) or a Cunningham. I've never played an acoustic Slaman, but I would expect his acoustics to be a bit more on point.

**campusfive** · 09-25-2018, 06:07 PM

Oh wait, you're in Australia. Stephen Gilchrist is the way to go.
16 non-cutaway option — Gilchrist Mandolins & Guitars

**Jabberwocky** · 09-25-2018, 06:18 PM

And Paul Duff

Products & Prices

**Jabberwocky** · 09-25-2018, 06:23 PM

A Stephen Gilchrist L5 is about $26000 from his one and only worldwide dealer, Carter's Vintage. Twenty-six thousands. I don't know if Stephen Gilchrist sells directly in Australia. I was stunned into silence when I received the quote. I felt like I had just taken a wrong turn and walked into Hermés with my Birkenstocks on when I was just looking for a bag.

**Bluedawg** · 09-25-2018, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

A Stephen Gilchrist L5 is about $26000 from his one and only worldwide dealer, Carter's Vintage. Twenty-six thousands. I don't know if Stephen Gilchrist sells directly in Australia. I was stunned into silence when I received the quote. I felt like I had just taken a wrong turn and walked into Hermés with my Birkenstocks on when I was just looking for a bag.

Still a bargain compared to ordering a new Monteleone ... or even buying a used one

**campusfive** · 09-25-2018, 06:43 PM

$26k you say.... well then, never mind.

**Gustavo Eiriz** · 09-25-2018, 06:52 PM

I dont know Trenier prices. But I found this video and thought that the acoistic sound was amazing.
I played some month ago an 1928 L-5 and I wasnt really impressed of the acoustic projection.
These guitar may have an historic value but nowadays builder are making amazing axes.

**rlrhett** · 09-25-2018, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

A Stephen Gilchrist L5 is about $26000

What?!! That just doesn't make sense. It's like someone buying a $15,000 dinner jacket. Who does that? Why? How could there possibly be anyone, let alone enough people to absorb his production, who are willing to pay that for a GUITAR?

**deacon Mark** · 09-25-2018, 07:43 PM

For 26k i know some Dangelicos that fit the bill!

**floatingpickup** · 09-25-2018, 08:31 PM

I have owned a couple Campellones and they are wonderful guitars. I currently have a Special model, which is 3” deep, with a “short” body and a 25” scale, like a Johnny Smith. I previously had a Deluxe, which was the regular sized body and a 25.5” scale like an L5. The Deluxe was definitely a louder guitar acoustically, and would probably be better for big band rhythm guitar, due to the larger body. I also own a few vintage Gibsons, including an L5C and L7, for comparison. I would say they are brighter than the Campellones, so they might cut through a big band better if you aren’t going to use a pickup. FWIW, my non-cut L7 is probably the loudest of all my archtops.
Keith

**grantc** · 09-25-2018, 11:05 PM

Thanks Keith, that's the sort of feedback I was looking for.

**grantc** · 09-25-2018, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

I've only played one Campellone acoustic - it was a 17" L-5 style, no idea about the body depth.
My Eastman AR805 non cutaway smoked it acoustically. SMOKED IT.

If you're looking for pre-electric, pre-bop old school acoustic rhythm guitar, I don't know that Campellone would be the best choice.
The best ones I've played would be Trenier (assuming you went with one of his older school models) or a Cunningham. I've never played an acoustic Slaman, but I would expect his acoustics to be a bit more on point.

Thanks Jonathan...….appreciate the feedback.
I updated my original post as well clarifying what I am looking for and mentioned your name. Hope you don't mind

**Jabberwocky** · 09-26-2018, 03:17 AM

You'd do well to consider some of the aforementioned: Gibson L7, Gibson L12, Gibson 300, Gibson 400, Epiphone Emperor, Epiphone Broadway, Epiphone Triumph, Eastman.

Mark Campellone makes wonderful guitars and I am not trying to dissuade you; given your budget and your specific requirements and if it does not have to be a Campellone why not consider an archtop from that Swing era built for that purpose? An Epiphone Broadway in black walnut can be got for about $2800 years ago; I see that asking prices have crept up-don't they always-but still in the low $3000. Same situation as the Gibson L7 and L12, both in the high $2000 and mid-$3000. You don't get a haircut when you buy used and sell it on but it comes with its own travails that you may not want to deal with.

All the new US designs sound bright and crisp-modern. If you want a traditional sound, look for one from that era. I have a 1947 L12 and a 1954 Super 300. I won't trade them in for any of the new designs, price no consideration. Old wood is old wood.

If you are going to mike it with the DPA4099-love that mike-you will find yourself having to equalise the bass down with a traditional archtop. So, a 3" rim depth would more than suffice. I would not use an Henriksen Bud with a DPA4099; use a full range combo like an AER Compact 60 or better or an Henriksen Extended Range with a tweeter in it or an acoustic guitar amp. Even one of those Bose L1s might be better for acoustic miking.

All in my humble opinion.

**grantc** · 09-26-2018, 03:45 AM

Thanks Jabberwocky...……Maybe I have been a bit "blinkered" about an L5. I have not really considered anything else I must admit. The big problem in Aussie land is the lack of available second hand instruments in a central location like Norms Rare guitars to try out!...….Hmmm.....Maybe a trip to USA

I am also curious about your comment regarding the DPA4099 and the Bud. Would you mind elaborating further?

**Jabberwocky** · 09-26-2018, 04:03 AM

Here are what Joe Vinikow of archtop.com: Fine Vintage Instruments Online has in store:

2009 Trenier Magnolia, sunburst, all carved, highly figured, 17" Venetian cutaway, Armstrong floating PAF, 1 3/4" nut, stunning has arrived

1996 Campellone Special Custom, blonde, all carved, quilted 18" Florentine cutaway, oval soundhole, vintage gold DeArmond floater, amazing has arrived .

Give Joe a trans-Pacific call. He does Skype demos. Joe plays and he is a smooth operator. Nyuk! Nyuk!

As for a DPA4099, it requires an acoustic mike preamp. It is a mini-condenser. The Henriksen Bud does not have the preamp for condenser microphones; it is voiced for magnetic pickups. Without a tweeter, it is rolled off at the top. Too, it uses an Eminence driver voiced for electric guitars; when it comes to acoustic guitars I prefer full range flat response drivers designed for reproducing acoustic sounds like voices, horns, woodwinds, and sttinged instruments. Even when you feed the Bud with an acoustic mike preamp the end result could be like hearing a person speak through hands cupped around his mouth. It will work but it won't sound like the acoustic guitar you expect.

Just my unwashed opinion. I could be seriously off kilter. Happy to be shown up as being wrong.

**Jabberwocky** · 09-26-2018, 04:11 AM

Not shilling Joe's wares. Check this out:

1947 Gibson L-7

ASKING $3595. Negotiate.

1945 Epiphone Deluxe

ASKING $5995. Negotiate.

Kinda 20% to 25% higher than what I expect the market to be. I used to see the Epiphone Emperor selling for between $4000 and $5000 a few short years ago. But what do I know really? I am often wrong.

Read Joe's blurb very closely. His definition of "immaculate" may not necessarily be yours. Just saying. Subjective descriptors are just that, subjective and open to interpretation.

**grantc** · 09-26-2018, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

As for a DPA4099, it requires an acoustic mike preamp. It is a mini-condenser. The Henriksen Bud does not have the preamp for condenser microphones; it is voiced for magnetic pickups. Without a tweeter, it is rolled off at the top. Too, it uses an Eminence driver voiced for electric guitars; when it comes to acoustic guitars I prefer full range flat response drivers designed for reproducing acoustic sounds like voices, horns, woodwinds, and sttinged instruments. Even when you feed the Bud with an acoustic mike preamp the end result could be like hearing a person speak through hands cupped around his mouth. It will work but it won't sound like the acoustic guitar you expect.

Just my unwashed opinion. I could be seriously off kilter. Happy to be shown up as being wrong.

Thanks again Jabberwocky.....especially about the Bud.
At risk of going off the topic of this thread (please let's not stray to far

), you may be able to help with another issue with the Bud...…..feedback.
BTW the Bud does have a switchable tweeter but that's another matter.

First of all, my current Archtop is a 18" Sonntag X braced. It also has a Haeussel jazz floater. Great guitar but with the benefit of hindsight I should have asked Stefan to make me a parallel braced. I got what I ordered, that's my problem not Stefans. I have managed to get more clarity and a "thinner" tone by replacing the Ebony saddle with a solid bone saddle and I have replaced the Ebony Tailpiece with a "fingerstyle" Tailpiece. I am very happy with the result as far as chord melody etc goes. Love it and I am not parting with it. But I want a parallel braced as well.

Now to my point.
For acoustic playing I have been amplifying it using a Audio Technica Pro 70 plugged into a Bose Tone match (Shure SM58 match) and then the Bose into a Behringer B208D giving me a pretty impressive result actually. NO Feedback issues at all. But not the sound I want if I use the Pickup. Another Amp is needed.
But it's also bit complicated to set up especially for Jazz Festivals when you have to set up quickly.

Then along came the Bud and after reading a number of reviews I thought finally, a multi-purpose amp!
One channel for acoustic and one channel for Electric and simple to set up!
With some influence from Jonathan Stout I also upgraded to a DPA 4099.
The Acoustic sound is quite good actually and I love the Electric sound but the Feedback issues with acoustic, which vary depending where I place the DPA but nevertheless are still an issue compared to my original set-up and have left me perplexed so say the least.
So I have now plugged the Bose Tonematch into the Bud which gives me much more control however it is still rather sensitive and of course goes back to being more complicated. I think it sounds better as well.

Are the specs of the Behringer better suited to Acoustic maybe? Any ideas.

**Jabberwocky** · 09-26-2018, 07:53 AM

Stand corrected about the Bud.

No experience with the Behringer but if my experience with the Yamaha DX10R is anything to go by, it would appear to work well acoustically with the dpa 4099.

I note your feedback issues. Where you can hear your combo, in all likelihood the dpa 4099 can also hear it. dpa recommends that the mike be placed where stray reflections are minmised. 10 points on close miking for live performances

But this is a conundrum that confronts all amplified guitars. In-Ear Monitors may be the solution but your audience gets to benefit from the tone of your set-up. Have you tried placing the Bud on a pole-stand, elevating it off the floor and behind you?

Johnathan Stout has much more experience than I and I defer to him.

You have an 18" Stefan Sonntag. Stefan makes great guitars. Perhaps he has advice for you. One way of controlling feedback is to wedge a soundpost between the top and the back. Carded sheep's wool, loosely stuffed in the f-hole where the dpa 4099 points helps.

In my humble unwashed opinion.

**grantc** · 09-26-2018, 08:31 AM

Thanks again Jabberwocky for your input (no pun intended

)

The fact that the Sonntag works well with the Bose/Behringer/Audio Technica Combo eliminates the Guitar I would have thought but????
There is no doubt that the DPA is a superior mic compared to the Audio Technica and I would think also that the Henriksen Bud is superior quality to the Behringer. Maybe they are both so sensitive that the combo of the two picks up the idiosyncrasies of an 18" X braced Archtop played acoustically!
From what I understand a parallel braced Archtop projects much more cleanly.

FWIW....I really love my 18" Sonntag. The couple of changes I made as mentioned in my previous post have made this guitar the ultimate all rounder. Will never part with it!

Anyway, again, thanks for your help, much appreciated.

Grantc