Gibson ES-175 buzzing problem

**JazzGuitarist** · 11-06-2009, 09:44 PM

I recently purchased a new Gibson ES-175 from my local music store, Alto Music. It's a dual humbucker gold hardware beauty. When I took it home and plugged it in after playing it in the store for quite some time, I soon noticed a strange buzzing that appeared to be coming either from the bridge or inside the body near or in between the pickups, definitely not fret buzz. Somehow I didn't hear it in the store. Though slightly present with single note picking, chords, especially muddier ones that cause more vibration naturally made the buzzing louder and last longer (maybe 1.5-2.5 seconds). It also seemed to be present both amplified and acoustically, though I'm quite certain it's not the pickups themselves. My best guesses were either the pickup springs buzzing against their screws or simply a loose wire inside the body making contact with the top of the body. So I took it in and had them attempt to diagnose it while getting a setup done, moving up from the factory installed 10s to the Daddario jazz medium set (13-56). When I came to pick it up, I checked it out in the store before just walking off with it. It's a good thing I did. With the new setup, the guitar played like a dream, but the buzzing was the same as it had been when I dropped it off. I talked with the tech, and he said he'd taken out the pickups and checked them, checked the springs (I think he installed new springs, not sure though) yet he hadn't found the problem. However, he had to ask me if the buzzing was coming through the amplifier. Isn't that his job, to test it through an amp?? DUH. Then he told me that "It's a jazz box, they're gonna buzz," which I don't buy at all. We're talking about a $2600 guitar here. Do you think Joe Pass or Pat Metheny dealt with buzzing in their ES-175s? Listen for yourselves. So I left it there and both the head of the guitar department there and the tech said they'd look it over more. The guitar department guy gives me a call later that night with no solution. He said they'd swapped out the bridge, he'd played it for about and hour trying to figure it out, but no luck. He said that the Steve Howe ES-175 they had there (which I had played before making this purchase) also buzzes, and again insisted that it's simply the nature of the instrument. To get a new one shipped to Also Music, he said it would be around 60 days because they're on back order. That's way too long for me because I have multiple concerts and auditions coming up in a few weeks. So I'm going back possibly tomorrow to see what I want to do about this mess, but I want some more opinions on this matter before I do. Is it truly in the nature of archtops or ES-175s more specifically to buzz in the body, or is there simply a stupid wire just hanging loose vibrating against the top that got past Gibson quality control? (By the way, sorry for the long post, I appreciate your reading it.)

**randyc** · 11-06-2009, 09:59 PM

Gosh, that's a good question, one that I ask myself from time to time, actually. All of your speculations regarding the cause are good, sensible possibilities.

Omitted from your list was one other possibility, which is the TOM bridge. Although never having experienced THAT particular problem, I have read of others correcting the buzz by adding, removing or adjusting (by bending) the little springy wire that is supposed to keep the saddle adjustment screws from moving.

I've found a technique that has assisted "me" in tracking down those irritating noises. If certain positions on the neck seem to excite the buzzing more than others, place a capo over the strings at that location. Then, using a stiff piece of home electrical wire ("Romex"), which can be bent in various positions, gently probe around through the f-holes while strumming the open strings.

The idea, of course, is to apply a little pressure with the insulated wire at various locations until - hopefully - the loose object is located. The entire process requires a lot more luck than skill or knowledge, I'm afraid.

My L-4CES, which is very similar to your 175 has a similar problem and I've not found the buzzy culprit. (Fortunately, the noise isn't detectable when the guitar is amplified, so I didn't put much effort into tracking it down.)

I wish you luck !

Archie · 11-07-2009, 09:19 AM

I can't be of much help, except to say I've had similar problems recently with two of my guitars. I have a 1959 Gretsch Clipper, and isolated the buzzing problem to the plastic pickup cover, which has warped with age, so I've ordered a new one. My Larrivee L03 buzzes when I play an E on the 3rd string, 9th fret, and the source appears to be in the battery compartment for the onboard pickup, so since I never play it amplified, I just took the battery out.

Good luck finding and solving the problem.

**JazzGuitarist** · 11-07-2009, 02:22 PM

The buzzing on my ES-175 is audible with and type of playing at a certain volume (right hand wise, not the actual volume controls). As I've said, it's not as audible with single note playing as it is with chords, but yet it's still there in both cases. Is this common among archtops and/or ES-175s or is this unacceptable? And shouldn't a tech be able to diagnose this?

**gpmedium** · 11-07-2009, 04:45 PM

If you hear the buzzing through the amp I would tend to believe the buzzing is something that is either touching the pickups or the strings. Since your tech has checked out the pickups, it might be time for you to look at what's touching the strings.

First look at the way the strings, particularly the ball ends, are placed in the tailpiece. They could be a source of buzzing.

I looked on the Gibson forum, seems another ES-175 owner had a buzzing issue and it was the retainer wire on the bridge, as just as Randy mentioned.

**JazzGuitarist** · 11-08-2009, 01:37 AM

You know, I could be wrong about it buzzing amplified, since I was playing at low volumes so that even the acoustic buzzing was heard. But I've thoroughly checked the tailpiece, bridge and the stings have been replaced. At any rate, I need to know whether to 1) Deal with it and possibly try to find loose/touching wires myself because this is a common problem among archtops/ES-175s or 2) Request a new one from Alto Music/Gibson or find a real guitar tech because buzzing from a $2,600 Gibson is simply unacceptable.

**randyc** · 11-08-2009, 02:24 AM

OK, I'll commit:

There are a LOT of pieces in the jigsaw puzzle from which an archtop is comprised. Combinations/permutations of things that can vibrate are practically endless. (These things are not like a Telecaster or a Les Paul.)

So it's HARDER to make an archtop buzz-free. But it's not inherent in the design, these things don't HAVE to buzz. Pick up some $300 off-the-rack Asian instrument and it PROBABLY won't buzz.

Your tech is <<tactully expressed>> incorrect.

I suggest that you tell them that the problem must be fixed and that they must loan you an instrument to use in the meantime. Contact the factory (800 number) and express your dissatisfaction with the dealer - let him KNOW that you're doing this.

(If you are the original purchaser of the guitar, Gibson will do right by you - that's been my experience anyway. But you have a time problem Gibson will take at least three weeks to sort it out and satisfy you, again based on my one-time experience.)

If the store won't help you out with this, and if there is a legal way to do so, back out of the deal. ( Are there no competitors for Alto Music in your area, no way to hold their feet to the fire for their unsatisfactory performance ?)

It's understandable that you want to hang on to an instrument that plays like butter. When I returned my guitar to Gibson, I made it clear that I wanted the same guitar back. Didn't get it, got a new one instead - fortunately it played as well as the old one. But I understand your desire.

Here's a surprise: distributors and dealers (especially internet transactors) DEPEND on your reluctance, to minimize customer support expenses. Dang, how many people have ordered items that were unsatisfactory but didn't return them because it's so HARD ?

Work the system, make a fuss - especially when other customers are in the store. See if you can borrow an instrument from a friend to get you through the dry spell while Gibson makes it right, if you have to.

Your situation SUCKS. If it were me, cranky as I am, there'd be consequences resulting from the poor service that you're experiencing. It's difficult for many of us to deal with people that are intentionally unhelpful. We don't want to be as MEAN as is sometimes required to get a modicum of service from these people.

In your case, it sounds like you have to suck it up and do some things that would normally be distasteful to you.

Good luck !
Randy

**JazzGuitarist** · 11-08-2009, 03:18 PM

Thanks a lot, I appreciate your concern. I figured that buzzing in the body of any archtop is, while more likely, not inherent, like you said.

Here's the thing with Alto Music. They're only competition is pretty much just the big online stores like Musician's friend and Zzounds. However, they nearly always beat prices displayed on these sites, so that is one reason I like dealing with them. And the head of the guitar department there, who I've been dealing with has been really helpful with me and persistent the whole time, giving me a better deal on this guitar from the start because it was on display for a little while, making sure my setup and supposed repair was done in a day, and keeping in contact with me over the phone. He also contacted Gibson himself and told me what they had to say, which was that they're back ordered and it won't be for about 60 days until a new one can be shipped to the store. But like you said, I've fallen in love with this particular guitar, and I would rather get the same one back if I sent it to Gibson. So I really would hate to make a fuss with him about this. Plus, you really can't blame him for anything; he's been doing his job well. Who I should be hassling is either the tech or Gibson myself. I think I might just give up on the tech and see what Gibson can do. I'm too attached to this guitar's playability, tone, and beauty to back out of the deal, and like I said, no one can beat Alto Music prices that I know of. Since it's obviously still under warranty, do you know if they'd repair it for free?

**randyc** · 11-08-2009, 03:49 PM

Gibson warrants for the lifetime of the original owner. You'll be stuck for one-way shipping costs only. As I mentioned above, though, you may not get the same guitar back - it all depends on how much work the repair techs have.

If they're backed-up, they'll probably put your guitar aside and wait for a slack period to fix it. In my situation, I got a new instrument within a few weeks. If there is a shortage of your model being produced, you may have to wait a little longer. As an original owner, however, you should get priority on the waiting list.

Good luck !

**JazzGuitarist** · 11-08-2009, 11:33 PM

Some good news. I went to back today and played my ES-175 side by side with the Steve Howe ES-175 they said was also buzzing. As it turns out, after the head of the guitar department there swapped out bridges and reinserted the original, tightened everything he could, and checked the pickguard all on the night I brought it back, the buzzing is barely audible now. As for the Steve Howe, it buzzes the same, if not more than mine originally did, and in the same exact place and manner, from what I heard. And I found out that the very slight buzzing that does occur doesn't come through amplified, which is a big plus. I even got a free leather strap for the trouble

. So I took it home and I'm much happier with it now, though if it does get worse again, I'll probably end up taking it to a different tech.

Thanks for everyone's help and concern with this!

**cosmic gumbo** · 11-09-2009, 12:37 AM

I had that problem once, but it turned out there was a bee inside my guitar.

**derek** · 11-09-2009, 01:10 PM

I had bought a new 175 a few years back and it had a buzzing that I couldn't live with. It cost me $125 in a fret dress and disassembly to discover it was a loose brace in the top. Sent it back to Gibbo for another.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-09-2009, 01:41 PM

This past weekend I found myself alone, so I cranked up the amp. I heard this annoying buzzing! :shakesfist: Then I realized that about 2 metres in from of the amp there was a plastic box of legos that was the source of the buzzing! :whew:

**dh82c** · 11-09-2009, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by derek

I had bought a new 175 a few years back and it had a buzzing that I couldn't live with. It cost me $125 in a fret dress and disassembly to discover it was a loose brace in the top. Sent it back to Gibbo for another.

Loose braces are a hard one to trace and my worst-case scenario.
Fretwork, loose trussrods (yes.. I have seen it), misseated pickguards. None of them scare me. Just requires a LOT of patience. But a loose brace is out of my league.

**randyc** · 11-09-2009, 05:39 PM

I think that Kamimoto talks about diagnosing loose braces. He talks about repairing them too, what an exercise in preparation and patience ! (I wouldn't personally try to repair one. Chances are that I wouldn't fix the problem and, in the process, mess things up for the expert that COULD have repaired it.)

**dh82c** · 11-09-2009, 07:59 PM

Yeah.. Kamimoto has a page or so on it. I am trying to imagine getting a syringe in to get the glue between the top and the brace.. and I had an unpleasant flash.. I am still picturing acoustics with a large soundhole to work with. The thought of trying to fix an archtop with only F holes to let me work is daunting to say the least.

**Little Jay** · 11-10-2009, 09:02 AM

Just for the record: with an ES175 you have the pick-up cavities to work through as well.....

**dh82c** · 11-10-2009, 10:28 AM

The guitar I had in mind (which I will not name) does not have any pickup routes

**Little Jay** · 11-11-2009, 06:47 AM

It just struck me that on my ES175-copy I sometimes also had a funny buzz, that dissappeared when I pushed the pickup a little bit to one side or another. I actually ended up sliding a thin piece of cartbox-paper between the pickup and the pickup-ring. It makes sense that a pickup vibrating against it's ring could also be audible through the amp, and it could come and go when the guitar is moved.

My buzz was realy like the buzz you are describing. So check your pickups again, you never know...... it could also be a pickup-ring-screw that's a little loose maybe (insert a piece of toothpick in the screw-hole). Or you could carefully stretch-out the little springs that hold the pickup.

Hope to be of help!

**JazzGuitarist** · 11-13-2009, 12:08 AM

Well, I just found another totally unrelated buzz. This time it's fret buzz. I found that it buzzes only at the fourteenth fret, so I used a short straight edge to check for a high fret and sure enough, it rocks on the fifteenth fret. I could also tell it was a high fret because when you fret the third string at the fourteenth fret you get tons of buzz but when you move up to the fifteenth fret there is absolutely none. What the hell is with Gibson quality control?? Is this ever going to end???

**randyc** · 11-13-2009, 12:27 AM

As I suggested several times previously, send it back if you're unhappy, but you need to provide a specific reason for your unhappiness.

ALL guitars buzz at SOME fret and at SOME level of attack and with SOME variation in adjustment of nut/bridge/truss rod with SOME brand of strings using SOME picks. You will most likely get little sympathy from Gibson for this vague complaint

Consider this: when you bought the guitar, did you specify a certain clearance between each string and each fret at every practical plucking angle and attack, for all combinations/permutations of guitar strings, guitar picks and the various phases of the moon ?

Of course not. Because if you did all of that, you would have a "Government" Gibson and it would cost $25,000. You bought a standard, off the shelf product. Send it back and stop whining, SHEESH !

**HotClubBrampton** · 11-13-2009, 07:30 AM

My .02 cents :

I have a 2008 ES-175 and have experienced these scenarios:

- unplugged, light strings, hard pick attack, low action
Problem: Crazy buzz/rattle
Cause: the combination above
Solution : change it

- unplugged, medium strings (12 rounds), hard pick attack, medium action
Problem : some rattle in the pickup area
Cause : springs that hold the pickups were loose due to being at the heighest position
Solution : lowered the pickups, therefore getting the springs compressed and rattling was gone

- unplugged, medium strings (13 flats), hard picking, 'correct' jazz action (kind of high, me likes), lowered pickups (woodier tone)
Problem : ocassional buzz
Cause: see above
Solution : carry a screwdriver in the case, just tighten up the screws that hold the pickups and/or pickguard. No problem

After panicking for a while when I got it, I found some sound advise on the web from this forum and also, the Gibson hollow_body one.

It all made sense: Usually the default strings (Gibson 10s) and the store desire to show 'low' action, while testing unplugged in a crowded store with a non-really-acoustic guitar that you have to strum hard to hear, are a deadly combination.

Of course, if the problem is structural (bracing) then that is a major issue

I have no uncontrolled buzzing/rattling problems with my ES-175. My normal configuration now is Thomastik Infelds Swing 13s strings, medium pick/strum attack with a Wegen hand made pick or just my thumb (great for comping), lowered pickups for smooth amplified tone (also keeps those springs in place). Late at night, when playing unplugged, this beauty is a dream to play

good luck!

**randyc** · 11-13-2009, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by JazzGuitarist

Well, I just found another totally unrelated buzz. This time it's fret buzz. I found that it buzzes only at the fourteenth fret, so I used a short straight edge to check for a high fret and sure enough, it rocks on the fifteenth fret. I could also tell it was a high fret because when you fret the third string at the fourteenth fret you get tons of buzz but when you move up to the fifteenth fret there is absolutely none. What the hell is with Gibson quality control?? Is this ever going to end???

JG: sorry about last night's response, I was cranky and past my bedtime. If you don't want to send the guitar back, I suggest the following "adjustment":

Obtain a small piece of close-grained hard wood, any convenient size that will fit over at least 1/3 the width of the fret and not touch any other fret. Sit down and lean the guitar neck on your left shoulder, frets facing away from you, strings removed (or loosened so that you have clear access to the fret).

Place the hardwood "tool" firmly, grain side against the high fret and give the wooden tool a good hard tap (Tap - not "blow") to seat the fret. Repeat about three times over the entire width of the fret.

If you're SURE that the high fret is seated properly and is still too high, get out your file and carefully lower it to the same height as adjacent frets.

NOTE: Before doing this, reconsider your lack of desire to send the guitar back to Gibson. Tampering with the instrument without permission may void your lifetime warranty.

If you want to send the thing back to the tech that couldn't diagnose the original problem, maybe he can seat the fret under your supervision.

**JazzGuitarist** · 11-13-2009, 04:32 PM

Now I do like to tamper with/set up my guitars on my own, but shaving off frets is something I really don't want to mess with. If all else fails though, I might actually try tapping the fret as you described to see if I can get it seated any deeper.

And sorry for complaining, it might just me my lack of experience with archtops. However, my mindset is that even though I do have heavier strings than the factory 10s, a $2600 guitar should still play flawlessly not even at a low actions, but at LEAST at factory action settings, which I consider middle of the line, not quite low. I was playing it yesterday and the action felt higher than what I read the factory settings were for the bridge, which is supposed to be 5/64" on the bass side and 3/64" on the treble side measured at the 12th fret. So I checked it and sure enough, the treble side was about 1/64" high while the bass side was pretty much right, but not perfect. After adjusting to factory settings, the guitar felt great, but that's when I noticed the suspected high fret, because I got insane buzzing at the fourteenth fret. Plus, pretty much every note from the 4th string down buzzes above the 8th fret very slightly, now that I have the bridge at correct factory settings (which brings us back to how bad Gibson quality control is). I would send it in to gibson for repair or replacement if I knew I could get it back in a weeks, but that will never happen. Perhaps I just will string it with flatwounds and raise the action back up a bit. But am I wrong that it should still play flawlessly at factory settings?

**gravyTrain** · 11-13-2009, 04:40 PM

The buzz is most likely coming from within the pickup housing (the pickup vibrating on its springs and hitting the black plastic pickup ring that screwsinto the face of the guitar). You may want to try putting a little piece of foam (or cardboard) between the black pickup housing and the pickup and see if that stops it.