Good Guitars From China

[randyc]

see, this is why i bought canadian with my last guitar. avoids the whole debate.

Hard as I've tried, I just can't figure out a way to argue with you ! Must be a bitch: being right all the time ! Oh wait, that also implies that "I'M" right all the time, too

Cheers, B

LPD: whew ... that's a seriously wicked post, you do good work when inspired !

[Quester]

I'm a little skeptical. I have owned several Epiphones, and to call any of them "superb" is a considerable stretch. They were all well made, serviceable instruments, but no more than I would expect from CNC manufacturing. And, as noted above, I have examined an American-made 335 side-by-side with its Korean cousin, the Epiphone Sheraton II. I defy anyone to call that Epiphone, as good as it was for its price, "superb." Granted, in these days, when anyone who has appeared briefly on television is thereafter known as a "superstar," this may be taken as a quibble.

I would, rather, call them "workmanlike." No obvious flaws, but if you look a little closer, "superb" evaporates, to be replaced by "built to a price." Let's take a look at these two guitars: both are laminate (not a dig: that was a rational design decision made back in the '50s) and both, as it happens, are finished in clear gloss (AKA natural).

The maple veneer on the Epi is unfigured, with several small but noticeable scars, apparently an artifact of veneering the wood close to the bark; the Gibson is lightly figured, with zero flaws. Again, both have a clear finish, so it's reasonable to expect that what we see is what we've got. The necks have a similar shape, but the Epiphone's is made of a 5-piece sandwich (outer and central maple, with a darker wood interposed).

The fingerboard and peghead inlays of the Epi are much more elaborate than the dot and crown inlays on the Gibson. Real nacre and abalone shell were used, and the vine design is quite attractive. Up close, it's clear that a lot of filler was used on the peg head -- less so on the fingerboard, since that uses essentially square routs for the three-piece inlay. The Gibson is much less elaborate, with dots and the usual "crown" on the peg head; there is no filler visible.

The tuners, bridge and tail piece are of a similar design, but those of the Epi are coated in a tacky looking gold color (which had mostly worn off my '95 by the time I got it last summer) while the Gibson equivalents are nickel. Nickel tarnishes, but it can be polished; and many of us prefer its appearance to any amount of faux gold.

Let's go on to the electronics, because this is what makes or breaks an electric guitar.

My Sheraton had been owned since new by a guitar tech. None the less, it had a faulty pickup selector switch (it intermittently worked/didn't work), scratchy knobs, and weak-sounding pickups. Again, I myself would not choose the word "superb" to describe these components. I pulled out the switch, controls, harness and pickups, and rewired it with Seymour Duncans and Switchcraft components. This did no more than bring its electronics up to approximately where the Gibson's were, out of the box. After all the work, and teasing components in and out of the treble f-hole, it still doesn't compare with the 335.

I have to say something about the knobs on the Epiphone: they were the cheapest looking things I've seen in many years...they now reside in the local landfill.

Superb? Yes, if you're speaking of my Gibson ES-335. But if you're referring to the Epiphone, who do you think you're kidding? And remember this: an inexpensive guitar may look "superb" from the outside, but once you get under the hood, you're in for some surprises. Price lining is all about selling bling for more bucks than is required to produce it, and bling, lord help us, is not what's on the inside, but only what's visible.

My comments related to the "finish" of the guitars not the internals which are of course appropriate to the price banding. My comments also refer gear coming off the production line in 2009 which are clearly streets ahead of even the recent past. However I think for the price differential I can put up with the Epi knobs and inlays especially given the fortunes being paid for custom distressed instruments and the comparative low cost of replacing knobs. At least we have a good choice these days and the quality is constantly improving - a massive move forward compared to the not too distant past.

[lpdeluxe]

Thank you, Randy.

Questar, you make a good point about the improvements of lower-end instruments. My first guitar was a used '60s Ventura jumbo that I paid $35 for, and it was worth every penny. Note that, when I bought a new case for it, the case was another $35! The guitar had top bracing that most closely resembled floor joists: a ladder configuration, using mystery wood to brace a top that was fine-grained spruce on its top ply, and pallet-grade Philippine mahogany underneath.

Some years later, I had a local luthier replace the plywood (calling it "laminate" is too neutral a term) top: he made a new, solid bear-claw spruce with a modified X-bracing that transformed that pitiful old thing into a real lap piano (the top was so nice, I asked him why he didn't put the same grade on the guitars he built with his own name on them -- one of which I have -- and he said, "it's too damn rare! I can get only enough for the occasional close friend"). The final touch: I asked him to retain the original "Made in Japan" label inside the body. The old plywood top resides in the office of a good friend, who was so taken with its ugliness that he had me sign it and hung it on the wall.

When I saw underside of the original top, I had an epiphany: there, in front of me, was embodied everything wrong with inexpensive guitars: it was cheap, poorly made out of inexpensive wood, and it was hidden! I have carried that moment of enlightenment with me ever after.

That said, CAD/CAM-CNC machines have transformed the lower end of the guitar market. No longer do we find poor fitting, carelessly finished cheapos made of low grade wood. No, instead we have tight fitting, well-turned-out cheapos made of low grade wood. And they will continue to get better.

[A revolution in wood harvesting or treatment or whatever is surely due, because this explosion in manufactory capacity is coinciding with the extinction of the sorts of old-growth wood that the guitar industry was built upon.]

But I digress. Low end guitars are better than ever, but the corollary of that is not "high end guitars are worse than ever." I believe the leveling is coming up from under, rather than down from above. Gibson is everyone's whipping boy, but I have to repeat that my trio of G's is as good as you'll find -- and a corollary of THAT is, if they weren't, I wouldn't own them.

Gibson (and Fender, and Guild, and others) have what no one can duplicate, and that is stocks of years-old wood. What they do with it will go (as Miss Hofstraw assured us in the 4th grade) on their permanent records, but give credit where they have earned it, which is through robust and elegant design, accurately repeatable tooling, and an understanding of what an electric guitar is.

Bring me some more of those pills, nurse.

[randyc]

Whhheeeewwwww DOGGIES ! As they say in Mayberry.

That's a fine piece of writing, gotta' love it even if one could find the courage to dispute anything that you said.

Hat's off to you, sir

[lpdeluxe]

Whhheeeewwwww DOGGIES ! As they say in Mayberry.

That's a fine piece of writing, gotta' love it even if one could find the courage to dispute anything that you said.

Hat's off to you, sir

Ha ha. Hell of a forum, if we can't even get into fights.

[derek]

Thanks, Derek, it's not possible to find a single point in your post with which to disagree. Either we think quite a bit alike or I'm getting too weak to argue ! Just kidding

My late night rant had more to do with watching the end of an era than it did with hard fact - the historical imperative was absorbing me.

France, Britain, Spain, Germany, even small Portugal and the Scandinavian states, all have had moments in the sunshine when they were regarded (and rightfully) as world powers whose wishes needed to be considered in the decisions made by other countries.

Frankly, the culture of "Western Civilization" has peaked and is now in decline, helped along by such far-thinking individuals as George W. Bush. The time of the third world is on us, like it or not, kicking and screaming, indulging in written tantrums, won't deny the historical imperative.

My kids will live with it, and probably won't even be troubled by this gradual change. For those of us who grew up in the period of WW II (well, just a little bit after, actually), it's difficult to make the adjustment.

I think about this stuff a bunch too, because my dad and father in law are not adjusting at all. They bitch and moan about the price of things, but then rail against stuff like NAFTA. They are both also bigots. At times I think that generation just will have to die before real change on such topics will truly happen.

I watch for such unbending curmugeonness in myself, because at 48, I am not getting any younger, and want to stave off the "Get of my lawn!" attitude that seems to generally accompany age.

The remarks made about the lower end guitars like Epi and Ibanez are right on. Great guitars for the $, and certainly giggable, but not good enough for me. Should I find myself in a lower income bracket, you know I will be changing my tune quickly.

Compared to the crap that was coming from Japan in the 70's when I was a kid, the MIC guitars are nothing short of miraculous. I have all sorts of students coming in with sub $300 guitars that I just marvel at.

[mattymel]

here we go again. when it comes to guitars...i am just a fan of USA built. though i do own a classical made in spain. im not sure what it is, but when i play a eastman, even a sadowsky, they just dont feel right. and they sound even weirder. just my personal opinion.

is it strange to assume that because we created the modern guitar that we have mastered it? all economics aside, i dont think anyone will create a gibson, martin or fender based guitar that sounds as good as someone in the US can make it. something karmic there...

[rpguitar]

Wait... "we" created the modern guitar? As in Americans? Um, no. The modern 6 string acoustic guitar (nylon strings) appeared in Naples Italy in the late 18th century, then was more or less standardized in dimensions by Torres in Spain in the middle of the 19th.

America surely had pioneers (Loar, Martin, Fender, et.al.), but let's not claim that we somehow "created the modern guitar."

[SamBooka]

matty mel.. here YOU go again.. this post was revived by a spambot..

Anyone know how to kill zombies?

[gremboul]

Eastman's are sweet and very affordable for a carved top.

[jazzguyfromnc]

Eastman's are sweet and very affordable for a carved top.

Agreed. And they've got tons of models, sizes, etc to pick from. I want a John Pisano model so bad I can't stand it.

[mattymel]

i know well the history of the "classical guitar"...starting w/ torres, ramirez, hauser, and fleta being the main contributors since...etc if you would like to go on in that direction.

obviously by "modern" i was referring to the guitars i mentioned. most people dont think of a torres as "modern". martin, gibson, and fender. this is after all a jazz forum, also an american art form therefore not surprisingly perfected by americans, with a few notable exceptions. sadly one of the few things to feel somewhat patriotic about.

i think that most people given the choice would choose an L5 over a Eastman. of course im sure some would argue that. thats fine. keep buying eastmans, they will likely be making our gibsons someday. just glad i got mine already...

[lpdeluxe]

obviously by "modern" i was referring to the guitars i mentioned. most people dont think of a torres as "modern". martin, gibson, and fender. this is after all a jazz forum, also an american art form therefore not surprisingly perfected by americans, with a few notable exceptions.

The only modern guitar I can think of that was perfected in another country was the Selmer gypsy guitars of the thirties. A Torres is hardly a modern instrument.

If you want to look at solid body electrics, Fender and Gibson wrote the book, designing fully mature guitars in the fifties that have not been improved upon in the intervening half-century.

[mcbrandt13]

What about this side point. If we all just bought vintage USA made guitars, that wouldn't be helping the economy either much would it? At least in terms of jobs. All those Chinese guitars being sent over here need to be transported, and stored. That's a handful of jobs in warehousing and transport, right there. That helps the economy to some degree. Granted, they aren't necessarily skilled positions (though I'd say it takes some skill to navigate a semi truck with a full load through inclement weather conditions and such). If we're just buying secondhand guitars from private owners, it's probably less slightly affecting the economy, as in it gives the original owner some money to spend. I suppose the point is moot if we're talking about currently made USA guitars. And, I suppose it's kind of a pick your poison type idea. Just a thought I had.