Gretsch Trestle Bracing

[Woody Sound]

Interesting.

[feet]

they've only been doing it since like the 50s or whenever. they also still make sound post models and their m/l bracing, which is kind of like a waffle cut thing. both the trestle and ml bracing providing increasing levels of feedback resistance, which makes them increasingly (but slightly) less "hollow" sounding. works pretty well, from what i'm told, and people seem awful pleased with the trade-off.

my gretsches have sound posts or whatever the g400 has, but i can handle it, i'm a tuff guy

[Marty Grass]

In my foolish youth I was trying to gig blues with a Howard Roberts hollowbody. A senior jazz player popped a sound post in it. It was a dowel that he cut down to size and wedged it in place. No glue was needed. It helped cut the feedback by maybe half.

The trestle bracing in Gretsches began in the 50s as I recall. It's the same idea only more potent.

[ptchristopher3]

Hi Feet,

If I may add an alternate view:

ML bracing is not waffle bracing.

Waffle bracing is an added very thick layer of wood to the center section of both the top and back with a x and y axis set of slots in it. Thus a sort of inverted waffle. A sound post between these two “waffle boards” makes the whole mess closer to a center block than trestle bracing, but still retaining a bit more hollow character.

ML bracing is sort of a half-trestle. Similar to trestles but without the upper legs. In effect, it is dual sound posts with stiffeners along part of the parallel braces.

So from hollow to solid there is. Sort of non-linear continuum:

1. Hollow with bracing
2. Hollow, bracing, soundpost - MANY sub-variations on a soundpost
3. ML bracing
4. Trestle
5. Waffle
6. Center block
7. Chambered solid
8. Solid
9. neutron star
10. 1980 Les Paul

There are many variations on the theme that fit in between and beyond my ham-fisted list. But that is sort of the general situation.

In my opinion.

Chris

[ptchristopher3]

Thinking abut this, there have probably been some variations on the waffle bracing including the thickness of the center boards. And the extent and orientation of the slots/kerfs.

I am not an historian, just messed with a large pile of guitars over decades.

Chris

[feet]

i guess i mean waffle in the figurative sense, and not the literal one. because it kinda looks like a waffle. or those criss cut fries from carls jr. i hadn't meant to allude to its actual structural properties, or how well it handles syrup, though my 6118 with sound posts goes with fried chicken just fine.

wasn't it just like two trestles with an eggo in between them? i haven't seen a photo in a while, but i will defer to your wisdom.

and since i always wanted one, now i'm curious about your placement of chambered guitars. i guess chambered varies, too. a les paul and a duo jet aren't the same thing as chambering goes, but relative to a center block? fascinating.

[ptchristopher3]

Hi Feet,

In my opinion chambering means and incredibly wide variety of things.

A weight-relieved Les Paul is chambered.

A Gretsch Duo-Jet more so, in sonic effect.

An ES Les Paul could even be considered chambered I suppose, yet it is more hollow than a center block Howard Roberts Fusion.

So some chambered designs could be argued as being more hollow than some center block designs.

My list is a very general opinion, but it breaks down quickly if you consider some of the many variations put there.

And this leaves out some VERY light body solids, like a mahogany SG which sounds great for jazz, but looks like Batman or AC/DC. But dial back the tone a bit, grab a D’Andrea pro plek and wowie.

And what about that white and gold very thin body thing that was around a few years ago.

It was not called the “Empress Carlotta” but something equally odd sounding. I played one at Rudy’s Soho (I think?) and the thing looked like Barbie’s Dream House but sounded great.

A HUGE constellation of resonances out there.

In my opinion.

Chris

[Woody Sound]

8. Solid
9. neutron star
10. 1980 Les Paul

lol

[Doctor Jeff]

Would the Godin Premiere fit into the "trestle" category?

We need pictures--some of us are very right-brained, visually oriented people!

[ptchristopher3]

A visually oriented person will do a better job than me of hunting down pics off the interweb to illustrate each example.

I suppose waffle bracing can be hard to see in person since many 6122 Gretsch guitars are closed up.

A look inside a later “country classic” with open f-holes reveals a good visual. Thinking about this some more, a good example of waffle bracing was the great (but absurdly neck-heavy) G6122JR. Small body, f-holes, easy to see waffle bracing.

[entresz]

my gretsches have sound posts or whatever the g400 has, but i can handle it, i'm a tuff guy

My Synchromatic G400 is X braced with a pressed solid top. No sound post.

[neatomic]

good bit on trestle bracing..reasons and origins!! chet!

Gretsch Trestle Bracing - 300guitars.com


and good stuff ptc3-

So from hollow to solid there is. Sort of non-linear continuum:

1. Hollow with bracing
2. Hollow, bracing, soundpost - MANY sub-variations on a soundpost
3. ML bracing
4. Trestle
5. Waffle
6. Center block
7. Chambered solid
8. Solid
9. neutron star
10. 1980 Les Paul

funny, because its true!! haha

cheers

[Greentone]

My first "upscale" guitar when I was a kid was a '64 Gretsch Nashville (CA 6120). I had been looking for a Country Gentleman at the time, but there was a retired guitarist from a somewhat prominent 60s band who had a Nashville for sale. I was in a band with a guy who owned a CG, so I was very familiar with that guitar already.

When I went over to the fellow with the Nashville's residence I noticed two things: (1) the Nashville was livelier than the Gent, and (2) it sounded great through a vintage Vox AC-30 (that's what the fellow had). I bought it.

When we fooled around with the two Gretsches back in the practice room, everyone noticed that the Nashville was...hmm?...more ES-330-like, if you will, while the CG was more ES-335-like. Popping off the back cushions and covers, we discovered that the bracing was different on the two guitars.

The Country Gentleman had a bracing system like the photo shown above--bridges or trestles. Chet Atkins has written about this as a design request he impressed upon Gretsch when he was considering a new guitar to replace his CA-6120 Chet Atkins model. By comparison, the 6120 Nashville had two parallel top braces that you can see by peering through the back hole:

This back hole is a photo of, I believe, a Van Eps model--but the bracing is the same as that for the Nashville. Two parallel top braces. The two holes you see through the top in this picture are (small) for the muting system and (large) for the floating tuning fork "bridge." The Nashville didn't have that. It was found on mid-60s Gretsches like the White Falcon and the Viking--Van Eps, too.

The lighter bracing on the 6120 gives it a more resonent, lively sound relative to the Country Gentleman. Both, however, are VERY nice, interesting guitars for jazz, IMO.

If you are apt to try Gretsch guitars for jazz, may I recommend the Van Eps and the Country Club models even more highly than the CG and 6120. They are really nice guitars with a full, warm sound.

[feet]

generally, the country club is a less shiny falcon. i would stab someone for the purple one, but decided i'd rather have a falcon.

the 6122-1959 is also worth considering, with its fake f holes and wider nut. i guess the 6122-1962 could also be worth a peek. depends how loud you want to play.

[Greentone]

Don't know about the Terada-made guitars. In the old days, the Viking was a less shiny Falcon. The Country Club was a more straight-ahead jazz offering.

[ptchristopher3]

Has anyone used a bladed “Supertron” in the neck position?

I never have tried one, but wonder if it did not have what in my opinion is a Filtertron weak high E response in the neck position for chord-melody work.

Off topic but maybe someone on this thread has a view.

[ptchristopher3]

generally, the country club is a less shiny falcon. i would stab someone for the purple one, but decided i'd rather have a falcon.

Not far from me:

Gretsch G6196TSP Country Club Grey (2015)

It is a pricey place, but it is also a fairly rare guitar for someone who wants exactly this.

Surprised they did not wick ultra-thin CA into the PG crack.

[Greentone]

Ptchristopher3,
I have played the supertron pickup in the neck position on the Country Gentleman, the White Falcon, and the Viking.

I really like the supertron a lot. I am not a big fan of the tuning fork bridge, which I could never understand.

[ptchristopher3]

Thanks Green’

Maybe I’ll try one. I may not big on pickup changes for “tone”. But when structure can help, i am interested.

Chris

[feet]

i have had a two supertrons in my 6118 for many a year now. bad. ass. both the guitar and the pickup are the modern versions, though. i like it very much. its been too long to compare it to the stock filters that came out, but the guitar just has something now. crazy balls and personality and volume.

though i will say the radiused bridge supertron can be a little weird because these things need to be super close to the pickups. i'd like to raise it but that is tricky. which is to say, the neck supertron can overtake the sound somewhat. which i don't actually mind all that much since i rarely use the bridge alone, but the middle position sounds great- its like a slightly thinner, clearer version of the neck.

i've cried hot, angry internet tears over that very club for a while now. its more than i'd want to pay but not crazily so. i'm just not in a buying place right now. and that one appeared after i finally decided to go with the new spruce top dyna falcon with the aged white finish (in my mind). so it makes me doubly angry. even more so because they actually photographed it well, instead of that sickly green hue it usually has. that's a hell of a consolation prize, but i'm like 80% sure i'd prefer the ebony board and spruce top. honestly, i'd be happy with either (and still kinda want to other, too).

[ptchristopher3]

Feet,

Will a super-t neck balance OK with a stock f’tron bridge?

I suppose I am asking if a Supertron is that much louder than a stock Filter. In my opinion, the stock filters balance each other just fine.

[feet]

it seems unusually loud to me, but that guitar is just an animal. and yeah, the neck supertron is pretty close to the strings, too. i suppose it'll balance ok with any of the tron family so long as they are both a happy distance from the strings. these things like to be close. i bought some squishy foam from tv jones to raise the bridge, but part of me is afraid to ruin the magic, so it never happened.

it isn't a gain or output thing, though. it is still very much a filtertron family member. its not an emg or even a paf of any sort. it's just somehow more badass. but still sounding the way you'd expect it to. a handsome, masculine tone, indeed.

you could also try to source a tv jones classic plus, or whatever it is they put in the gretsch 6122-1959, which comes with a supertron in the neck and something else in the bridge stock. i'm not sure its a regular tv jones menu item, but it should be available somehow. or just listen to that guitar to get an idea of how they work together.

[Greentone]

Wow. That grey club is a looker.

[bobchibell]

Hello,

I am reserching information for a Gretsch 6120 style build. It appears to me that trestle bracing only allows for direct fastening of the pick-up to the top/brace. Is this right?
If you use the humbucker style ears and springs to mount, then you will have to butcher the trestle braces making them ineffective. Is this right?

[ruger9]

Hello,

I am reserching information for a Gretsch 6120 style build. It appears to me that trestle bracing only allows for direct fastening of the pick-up to the top/brace. Is this right?
If you use the humbucker style ears and springs to mount, then you will have to butcher the trestle braces making them ineffective. Is this right?

Pretty much, TV Jones sells "Gretsch Pro Mount" for the Pro model Gretsches. These are ear-less. He also sells "english mount" versions that mount like regular PAF humbuckers, via the pickup ring. Grestch Electromatics have this system.

FWIW, a little carving out of the trestle bracing to fit a pickup (I've seen it done many times), won't hurt the brace or affect the sound... you won't be removing much. But it should be done carefully (not with a hammer and chisel) so you don't risk knocking something loose. If I had to remove a bit of a brace to fit a pickup, I'd use a dremel with a sanding wheel.