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I've said for a long time that Gibson should focus on a core contingent of models --you can pick yours, my list would include Les Paul, SG, ES-175, ES-335, a big-bodied jazz box -- and give them the three essential levels of trim: Faded, Standard, or Custom. And then rather than throw money at R&D for autotuning that no musician worth his salt needs, or gimmicky finishes/trim levels/electronics (Firebird X, anyone?) that buyers generally don't want, focus on the basics: quality wood going into a quality build, with quality components rounding it out.
Originally Posted by GNAPPI
They'd realize savings in supply-chain, training, and overall labor costs, which money could go to pay down debt and eventually build sufficient cash reserves.
Just my .02, carry on.
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10-20-2017 12:42 AM
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[QUOTE=Thumpalumpacus;810313]Yeah, it's my understanding that here in America Gibson requires $100,000 of inventory (based upon CoGS) purchased per year per store in order to maintain dealership status. That locks most smaller outlets out of carrying Gibsons ... but that also limits Gibson's market penetration to the Sam Ashs and GCs, mostly. And with so much of Gibson's business wrapped up in GC, which is itself floundering, that strikes me as a dangerous symbiosis for Gibson. Were GC to go into Ch11, Gibson could stand to lose their major market outlet and die of suffocation. Could they adapt in time? Would smaller shops flock to carry a brand suffering such market turmoil?
To the point another poster made about refinancing being based on HJ being pushed out, is he not 1/2 owner? How would that work? Force him to sell his share? If that is the case (and I don't know that it is), would he be willing to do that? I mean, arrogance is a hell of a drug.[/QUOTE]
Depending on the numbers, there may be no real equity. If the company goes into a death spiral, any new money could make a token payout to the old equity, and they'll move forward. It's all a negotiating posture...it gets interesting--- as any new financer--"new money"-- will demand priority to be a DIP (debtor in possession) lender, that adds a whole new set of claims to the totem pole, and the old claimants move down a notch. If they can sell off assets, and pay down some claims, that may give current equity the ability to hang around for a while. A complete wipeout of the equity is certainly possible, but it doesn't happen all that often. Realistically, current mgmt. still operates and makes decisions, and in the first instance has the right to propose a reorg. which could be 1. asset sales, 2. rejiggering of old claims (with bargaining based on their ultimate status in a bankruptcy), and/or 3. injection of new money, either directly or by an acquiring company.
One of these articles mentioned moving into Asian markets, and that could be interesting...leverage the Gibson name/and most of its brand attributes, and keep the older American operations, as downsized and higher priced luxury items. Maybe there is a real "Chibson" in your future! In essence, the newer Chibsons could be like Toyotas with decent quality and mass market appeal, and the now downsized original luxury brands being their Lexus brand.
I think GC is in a death spiral...suppliers have cut them off from what I hear....business is down, with stock in stores low, and volume way down.
Gibson is an interesting case---people bitch and moan about quality but they still command price premiums that plenty of people pay. (I don't buy instruments, or cars, new but I was happy to pay $2500 for an L4-CES...a 2003 that is a great instrument. I don't think I would pay $4 K for a new 175, but that's me. I'm pretty frugal by nature.)
The autotuning debacle will go down as Gibson's Edsel...a $40 M waste of money.
If there is a Ch. 11 in Gibson's future, this might create demand for "pre-bankruptcy" Gibsons, or it could go the other way with people deciding that the pre-bankruptcy stuff was why they went down. (I personally think a lot of post-1965 guitars were not that great---the American companies all ramped up production after the Beatles, and the guitar boom materialized. I owned a 1980 Norlin-era 347 that was a pretty good instrument, and lots of people think the 80's and 90 stuff, post-Norlin got better, overall.)
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My only experience with bankruptcy was managing a chain-store custom framing shop for a company that went Ch11 and then Ch7, so I probably have biases built-in. Because of that, I can't say anything about your first paragraph but thanks for the info. It will take a little digesting.
I think your prognostication about market-levelling Gibson products to offshore-built and US built might be on target. We've already seen that in the sense of Fadeds vs Standards, where the Faded buyers are buying iffy quality just to see the logo while the Standard-bearers want the legacy builds including the binding, full finishes, and so on. Much the same thing can be capitalized, I guess, to other countries whose only image of Gibson is from, say, a Bob Marley picture.
Lastly, I think Gibson's biggest competition is from older Gibsons, and that's a hard corner to navigate.
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Oh, and yeah, the GCs here in Austin have certainly changed over the last five years. If I had to guess, I'd say that CoGS represented on the walls and amp floor has gone down by at least 25%. They're scrimping on outlay, clearly, and that's not a good business plan in an industry devoted to leisure money.
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Marco, Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Being proud of your country and its fine products is an admirable trait. We "Brits" would like
to follow the same allegiance but sadly we do not have our own prestigious Guitar manufacturer
and only recently the resurgence of the motorcycle manufacturer , Triumph motorcycles.
But like yourselves no real own brand UK car builder, with the exception of the Morgan hand
built sports car. Back in the day I owned two Triumph Bonnevilles, one in road trim, the other
converted for road racing (track), In my advanced years I drive a BMW ,not because of the
"name " as someone suggested earlier, but for good value for money., extreme reliability ,
remarkably frugal diesel fuel consumption ( 56 mpg at 80mph cruising ) etc.,
I own USA built Gibsons for similar reasons ,not the name, but for their all round quality,
of tone and build ( forgiving the occasional duff ones ) and so I agree with your very simple
philosophy, If you want the best ,you pay the price. ( My first good guitar was a used 1959
Es 335, cost..... £100... QED )
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Alan, back in the day I had a Norton Commando and a Triumph Bonneville. Damn fine motorcycles to be sure. But those Lucas electronics... calling Lucas the "prince of darkness" was perhaps well deserved. And those Amal carbs with their "ticklers"....i guess a bit of petrol on the fingertips is no big thing (I was extra carefull lighting my cigarettes in those days). Originally Posted by silverfoxx
But Harleys, Chevy trucks, Gibson guitars...we make some good stuff here in the "colonies". And if it wasn't for our English heritage, where would we be?
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Smoking a lot of weed, living in teepee’s and speaking Russian or German.. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
JD
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I've never been into (motor) bikes, but to me that Triumph 750 (?) that Marlon Brandon rode in The Wild Ones would be the one I'd want.
My brother had a great job as a teenager in the 60's--working as a mate on a charter fishing boat out of Long Island...up at 5am, boat sailed at 6...home by 5:30, and we picked him up at 6:30 or 7, but he made great $...about $50 on a good day. He was able to buy himself a '65 Morgan...car had leather hinges on the hood "bonnet". Tiny and charming....US auto emission requirements killed them for U.S. import. They couldn't afford to retool.
That car was a serious babe magnet. He was probably the only guy within 50 miles that had one.Last edited by goldenwave77; 10-20-2017 at 08:32 AM.
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Marco,
You certainly know your stuff! Did you ever
ride a Manx Norton , full TT race trim? The Triumph
was capable of seeing them off at Brands
Hatch and Silverstone race circuits. In race trim
No silencers ( mufflers) and on megaphones plus
Amal Grand Prix twin carbs ,it was extremely rapid.
and ear splittingly loud.
the road bike was capable of 0 to 60mph in a tad
under 4seconds.(Race trim bike,off the chart.)
Lucas lighting equated to a Miners candle lamp.
By comparison cars were pedestrian. One
unbeliever had to be educated on the road bike’s
speed after scoffing at the 70mph speed in first
gear only, after a short trip on the pillion ,screaming,
he changed his mind , and underwear.
My wife rode on the pillion seat , unconcerned
except for speeds approximating 125mph. I am
ashamed to admit in retrospect.
Best, Alan
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Alan, I never rode a Manx Norton (very cool looking bikes indeed). I remain a fan of British bikes, especially the Vincents (A Vincent Black Shadow is a thing of beauty, a true rival to a Harley Hydra-Glide). Originally Posted by silverfoxx
Back in the days of my first Marco's Pizza (San Francisco, 1980's), I used to sideline as a motorcycle mechanic for a select few friends. One guy brought an 850 Norton Commando in for a tune up. I could not get that thing to run well even after installing new points and rebuilding the twin carbs. I put my compression tester on and both cylinders were under spec. Aha! thought I. Some new rings and this bike will run superb. The problem was, neither my metric wrenches, nor my American wrenches would fit the nut that needed to be removed for the Cylinder head to come off. I had to buy a Whitworth wrench to do the job (and finding one of those in San Francisco in the 1980's was no easy thing). I did locate one, installed new rings and that Norton ran like a bat out of hell. And that Whitworth wrench is still in my roll away tool box (I still do my own motorcycle maintenance. I tighten stuff with a torque wrench. How many shop mechanics take that kind of care in these days of greed and sloppy work?). I understand that the new Triumphs are all metric.
I am grateful for the English contribution to America's great culture and am particularly glad that I do not live in a Teepee nor speak German or Russian as my mother tongue
.
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More interesting is that fact that the 2018 Memphis line is down to 5 models (three versions of the 335, the 275 and the 330. No 175 in the 2018 lineup.) Will Gibson hollowbody archtops become a thing of the past? Will Gibson sell the Memphis factory and consolidate back to Nashville? (They say they want to continue Memphis production, just in a smaller space, but that may be putting on a strong face to keep the market from knowing their true weakness). Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
I will be keeping my six Gibson guitars for quite awhile. I hope the brand stays American.Last edited by Stringswinger; 10-20-2017 at 03:00 PM.
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Glad I stocked up on 175's. I still will pass on the smoking deals to my Bro's in the spring when it warms up. I don't do winter shipping.
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Well, I got my two Lucille's. I'm banking on BB King making a comeback. And I got a cherry ES-345 in case Marty McFly is a future teen icon. My future is set.
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Vinny ,
Those three HD's look great, a whole different experience to my old Triumph Bonnevilles.
SS tells me he liked the old Vincent Black Shadow British motorcylcles. They were
monsters and at the time of original testing back in the 50's I read that their top speed
was unobtainable on Britsh Roads. I don't know if they were ever tested on your Salt
Flats ? `strange that the interest in motorcycles is akin to Guitars , it rarely if ever wanes.
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I love Vincent motorcycles. We share the same name :-). Never got to ride one though I know they were the fasted production motorcycle in there day. When I was a puppy I rode 2 stroke Japanese bikes. The 3 cylinder Kawasaki 500 was lightning fast also.
Like Marco I have built a lot of motors in my day. Nowadays I just keep mine running. Getting too old to wrench on everyone's scooters. Luckily new Harley's are extremely dependable and they don't leak a drop. Not like the Shovelhead days were they marked there spot like Fido everywhere they went.
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So that's the $2 million dollar home that's less than 1300 sq ft? Only in Cali! Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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This seems related...
Gibson is selling its Memphis factory | MusicRadar
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Yes but it is only worth $1.3 million. The house across the street is only 2 bed 2 bath 1100 sq ft. Listed for 1.1 and sold in 2 days for $1.2....a fixer upper with termites. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Amazing! California dirt is pricey. My brother has owned a 1500 sq ft rambler in Livermore for 30 years and it's priced through the roof. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Good for you Vinny!
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getting way too crowded here though. High rise apartments going up everywhere.
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Same here in So. Flo. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Between apartments and condos going up what was once a quick straight shot 8 mile drive from the interstate through mostly green lights to every light being a 2 to 3 light delay. With all the drivers texting at lights it's going to be getting even worse. The texters even flip the bird to horn blowers and deliberately stay on the brakes.
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Unfortunately for us Canucks once again no luck with those awesome deals up here.
Official Canadian distributor Yorkville Sound might think its child store Long & McQuade will sell a lot of those figured 175D at close to twice the price a Canadian can get them through CME even with dollar exchange rate and thanks to the still enforced NAFTA no import taxes...
Gibson 2016 ES-175D Figured - Natural - Long & McQuade Musical Instruments
Its just a bit more of a hassle in case of return or exchange with border crossing...but still its a no brainer for someone looking for a new 175...
Repeating to myself, I am not on the market for another archtop...not easy!
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Don't knock it until you've tried it. Life in Russia and Ukraine is pretty good, especially for a single male! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I am grateful for the English contribution to America's great culture and am particularly glad that I do not live in a Teepee nor speak German or Russian as my mother tongue.
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If you mean the person, that would be a feat only dreamed of by the Egyptian pharaohs :-) Originally Posted by Marty Grass
But the BBK models may do it someday, if the semi hollow without "F" holes, richlite and varitone can lose the prejudice players have for them. A good friend has one in red and it smokes!!!
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