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Yeah, I always keep a couple of small screwdrivers in my bag, just in case, a Phillips and a flat. You never know when screws may need to be driven.
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10-19-2017 06:36 PM
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Guitar #1 is the Epiphone ES175 Premium, and #2 is the Gibson 2016 ES175D "Figured" model.
Thanks for playing!
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Well that ended with a whimper. I don't think the Gibson guys here like the idea that a $500 Korean knock off sounds pretty dog gone good.
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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I think it might highlight that "sound" alone is not the only variable, nor is it all that matters. I love the Epi, but the enjoyment of playing the Gibson is enormous. Still, the Epi illustrates that a Classic 57 pickup, mounted a competent body with a good neck, well set-up, can be a formidable sounding guitar. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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"formidable sounding." There it is! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Yes ! Originally Posted by pingu
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On the second listen, I didn't think it was close. I've always wondered if the extra $2000 made a difference in the sound, and now I know. It does.
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Gheh gheh gheh.... I know you guys won't believe me but I honestly thought that #1 was the Epi. I purposely suggested it would be the Gibson because it sounded so darn good. (Yeah my mind works in funny ways sometimes, sorry for that.)
But I am with Lawson that "sound" is not the only variable.
(Btw, I thought the Gibson sounded superb as well).Last edited by Little Jay; 10-22-2017 at 03:36 AM.
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Yeah right ..... Originally Posted by Little Jay
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You don't have to believe me, I won't loose any sleep over that :-) Originally Posted by pingu
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I think that is the overall thing to get out of this. Originally Posted by Klatu
Sure different, but better? Against what standard of measure? Not expecting you to answer, I'm just qualifying your answer. But even assumed "better", five times the cost better? As far as I can tell, EPI knocked it out of the park with their ES-175 Premium. Doesn't mean it as good, but it is close, and certainly a big bang for the buck. Like Joe Bonamassa says, any good version of a guitar will get you 90% if the way to the very best. How much are you going to spend to chip away at that 10%? Originally Posted by ksteijn
For me, I have huge respect for the Gibson ES-175 (going back to the mid-60s). But my use for one in what I like to play is marginal. So the EPI was a perfect alternative. The recent blowouts at CME first attracted me to the Gibson ES-175. But already armed with the EPI, I felt my money was much better spent on a 335, and I bought a '64 ES-345 TDC Maestro VOS. If I had deeper pockets, I would get both. But that's just me.
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I was bummed when I missed out on the Epi Premium blowout GC had back in the spring? last year? but since I caught one of the recent CME Gibson 175s I thank serendipity for the Epi miss.
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If one is not playing for the "best" tone, what is one playing for? I don't own a pedal, but guys here fuzz all over themselves for the "best" sounding pedal to suit their purposes. Originally Posted by Little Jay
Of course one chooses a guitar for its sound.
What good is a name brand, no matter how well liked, if at the end of the day its sound is less inferior to a cheaper instrument?
Now, I'm certain owners will say X guitar has better playability, but where the rubber hits the road is the sound. What am I missing?
Anyone with audio ears heard that #1 was the superior sounding instrument
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But that's my dilemma: I can't really say what tone is best. They are (a little) different and can serve different purposes. (Besides, the question was not what was the best tone - although it probably implied that - but which tone is which guitar. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
If one is not playing for the "best" tone, what is one playing for? I don't own a pedal, but guys here fuzz all over themselves for the "best" sounding pedal to suit their purposes.
Of course one chooses a guitar for its sound.
What good is a name brand, no matter how well liked, if at the end of the day its sound is less inferior to a cheaper instrument?
Now, I'm certain owners will say X guitar has better playability, but where the rubber hits the road is the sound. What am I missing?
Anyone with audio ears heard that #1 was the superior sounding instrument
But I don't want to troll this thread, my apologies if it comes across like that. I really thought both guitars sounded very good. Like I said, the Epiphone has a slight upper mid-treble 'bark' that quite pleases me, the Gibson a mellowness that I also like very much. Which tone I prefer depends of my mood that day...
The question of which is the better guitar is impossible to answer solely based on the tone imho. Like Lawson said: ''sound' is only one of many variables. Feel, playability, response, sensitivity and consistency are some others that come to mind this instance. I switched from an Epiphone Sheraton II (early 90ies, Korean, Samick?) to an ES-333 (Gibson Memphis 2005). In recordings of me using those guitars I have difficulties distinguishing between them. The Epiphone can sound really really good. But somehow it is more difficult with the Epiphone to always sound good on it; it takes more tweaking and it's like I have to play differently to make it sound good. The ES-333 always sounds good and sings under your fingers, you don't have to work so hard to get the tones out - it makes playing and sounding good easier.
I hope this all makes sense, just trying to contribute a little added value based on my experience to this very interesting thread!
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The Epi is without a doubt a better bang for the buck than the Gibson, but the fact that Lawson bought a Gibson despite owning the Epi speaks as well
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Actually I sincerely wasn't looking for "best" nor was I trying to trick anyone into thinking the Epi was the Gibson. I play both guitars a lot, I like them both, and I do feel and hear a difference when playing, but wasn't sure how to express it, describe it, nor to what I could link or attribute the difference. I have a ton of respect for this forum and its members so I thought I'd do my best to put a fair "blind" test up and see what I could learn. Originally Posted by Little Jay
I actually don't think "sound" in isolation is all there is. Great tone when I don't actually enjoy playing the instrument, when the instrument's overall feel doesn't elicit my best playing, is a huge issue. I am an amateur, I play out of love for the whole experience of playing jazz on archtops. So I love great tone, but I also love the look, feel, and vibe of archtops. I also have several tones that I love and am torn amongst them as to which is my favorite.
Currently my interest is in learning to describe tone in terms that aren't just versions of "I like X more" or "That's classic jazz tone." I think we could all stand a vocabulary check on how we describe tone. It's no problem to say how we feel about it, of course, but I'd love to be able to read someone's description of a tone and have a pretty decent idea what they're talking about.
This comparison was totally about (a) having fun with two great guitars and a great group of conversationalists and (b) educating myself better.
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Here's another thought. Maybe even though I'm still just a middling hobby player, maybe I've worked at this long enough to where no matter what guitar I play, I sound like.... me. If I did a clip mixing the Epi 175, the L5ces, and maybe the ES165... maybe they'd end up sounding very similar because I am the one playing them?
That is something I've pondered a lot. Maybe we need more of you guys out there doing these just so we can see the difference made by the players.
For example, I habitually play closer to the bridge than a lot of guys I see on videos. Recently I've started moving my RH more toward the neck. The tone changes, the string spacing affects my RH technique, the pick banging on the pickup from time to time, etc. But where the RH picks is an immediate tone changer. So maybe a larger/smaller guitar, different scale lengths, different pickup placement, shift the RH?
Anyway, you guys have indulged my enjoyment of this kind of exercise so graciously. I hope you're getting the same fun and insight from it that I am.
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Personally, I agree with your take on the superlatives. (Best, most, favorite, etc.) Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I feel it is quite liberating when I'm not chasing any of them. Fortunately for me, I'm not inclined to chase them. I am inclined to try lots of different things and experience lots of different feels, sounds, tones, etc.
It is not that "everything is great in its own way" to me. I have things I like and things I don't. I try to understand reasons I do and don't like whatever, but I also don't feel I have to justify my likes and dislikes either. Like I heard said, "my favorite guitar is the one I'm playing". Has nothing to do with (fill in the superlative)
And face it, when someone says "this sounds the best", they simply mean they like it the best. When is the last time you heard "This sounds the best, but I really don't like it"?.
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That's well said. Actually on your last point, I can see that being said. I mean, someone maybe knows what the "mainstream" jazz guitar sound is, say Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass on "Joy Spring." They can hear and feel the merits of that tone, but it isn't what they themselves go for. Maybe they like playing with a tone that is a little off that tradition, and they know it. So when they say "this sounds best but I don't like it" maybe (?) they mean "this is the classic tone and all, but it's not what I like to play." Originally Posted by wmachine
We're musicians, so we have our intuitive side, our not-always-rational tendencies!
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I've bought 7 Gibson's. That didn't turn me into a fanboy Originally Posted by Lobomov
The Epi is without a doubt a better bang for the buck than the Gibson, but the fact that Lawson bought a Gibson despite owning the Epi speaks as well
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Don't know that I'd call myself a "fanboy" though yes, I'm a fan. But hey, I'm a fan of Joe Pass, and he still has albums I don't like very much. I am a fan of Pat Metheny, but don't enjoy all of his music. I'm a fan of Louis L'Amour, but I don't like all his novels. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I've bought 7 Gibson's. That didn't turn me into a fanboy
It hasn't hurt that every single Gibson I've owned (total of 6 archtops) completely lived up to my (high) expectations. Maybe I have just been lucky? But I also love other instruments as many of you know. I love the Aria Pro II PE180, even enjoyed for years playing an archtop with a "Johnson" logo. El-Cheapo for sure, but it had a nice tone and played well. I have three Epiphones and I need to sell two of them but can't bear to part with any of them.
So... being a fan and being a "fanboy" are two different things, I suspect.
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