Affordable vintage non-cutaway acoustic archtop recommendations

**jzjazz** · 10-02-2017, 04:12 AM

Hi,

I'm looking for a new-old guitar to buy:

- old / vintage archtop
- no pickups holes (acoustic or floating attached to neck)
- dearmond rhythm chief to be installed on
- relatively popular - I want to buy that guitar in Europe!
- affordable (no Gibsons for >2000E, rather old Epi, Gretsch, Guild...)

As mentioned here:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...tml#post806777

I want to create a vintage sounding jazz box for rhythm comping in a duo or trio setup (with vocals and double bass), but since I wasn't really into these acoustic archtops so far, I have no idea what to look for.

Each advice welcome - which guitar models should ring a bell when I see them online (buying offline will be pretty impossible in Poland

).

**fws6** · 10-02-2017, 04:20 AM

Epiphone Triumph

https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/muziek-...umph-1946.html

**fws6** · 10-02-2017, 04:21 AM

(Btw thats not mine)

**jzjazz** · 10-02-2017, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by fws6

Epiphone Triumph
https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/muziek-...umph-1946.html

The price is a bit high (not for this guitar, but compared to what I wanted to spend), but when I listen to this, I'm instantly increasing the budget

**Fred Archtop** · 10-02-2017, 05:39 AM

Alternatively to Epi which are great, have a look to Gibson L50. A great acoustic instrument. Sometimes over your budget, sometimes under.

The Triumph model proposed by Frank is at a very good price for EU market.

Cheers.

**docsteve** · 10-02-2017, 07:41 AM

If you want a strong acoustic sound, look for Hofners, Framus and other German brands. I bought my Hofner in Berlin for 300 EUR, but that was some 10 years ago.

I remember even playing an old Polish archtop that had somehow found its way into my kids' school - not bad at all

**nopedals** · 10-02-2017, 07:49 AM

I would just be patient and save up for an L7 or Triumph. But if you want to make a move now at a lower price point there is a
guild ca-100 that's been on the for sale page forever because of numbers gouged on the back of the headstock. Make a fair offer on that and put some black tape on the numbers. I know you said noncut, but it already has a real nice dearmond.

**jzjazz** · 10-03-2017, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by nopedals

I would just be patient and save up for an L7 or Triumph. But if you want to make a move now at a lower price point there is a
guild ca-100 that's been on the for sale page forever because of numbers gouged on the back of the headstock. Make a fair offer on that and put some black tape on the numbers. I know you said noncut, but it already has a real nice dearmond.

L7 seems too expensive, so I guess it's down to Triumph vs L50. The Triumph sounds very attacky na harsh acoustically on YT. The L50 seems quiter and mellower and would be easier to play because of the smaller body. I'm planning to amplify it anyway (rhythm chief RI if I buy an acoustic version), so maybe the L50 is the better choice for me? The triumph on the other hand is tempting because of its look, the nice inlays etc. :-)

**fws6** · 10-03-2017, 08:12 AM

IMO a Triumph is equivalent to a Gibson L7, whereas the L50 is a very different constructed instrument. My L50 did not have room for a pickup

Be sure to read this old thread Gibson L-50

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-03-2017, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by fws6

IMO a Triumph is equivalent to a Gibson L7, whereas the L50 is a very different constructed instrument. My L50 did not have room for a pickup

Be sure to read this old thread Gibson L-50

My first good guitar was an L50. Good choice.

If money is an object, consider also the L48. I recall, decades ago, I bought the L50, being told that the L48 was the same guitar but without some extra binding. I can't verify it for sure, but it may be the same sound and a little less money.

**jzjazz** · 10-04-2017, 04:06 AM

The Triumph from the 1st link is gone :-( Regarding the L48/50 - I can see that the strings are pretty close to the body (the neck isn't lifted up and it seems that there is almost only the fretboard lying on the body), but wouldn't this be enough place to put a dearmond re-issue?

There are w few vids with l50 and rhythm chiefs installed on YT but indeed it seems that the pickup is very close to the strings and maybe I'd have to be affraid of hitting the pickup (or the strings hitting the pickup) when strumming chords?

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-04-2017, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by jzjazz

The Triumph from the 1st link is gone :-( Regarding the L48/50 - I can see that the strings are pretty close to the body (the neck isn't lifted up and it seems that there is almost only the fretboard lying on the body), but wouldn't this be enough place to put a dearmond re-issue?

There are w few vids with l50 and rhythm chiefs installed on YT but indeed it seems that the pickup is very close to the strings and maybe I'd have to be affraid of hitting the pickup (or the strings hitting the pickup) when strumming chords?

I played a 64 L50 with an original Rhythm Chief for years. I don't recall any problem with distance between pickup and strings. I do recall problems with feedback. Also, I don't know if you can push the pickup all the way to the neck to get it under the node. Can't recall.

**fws6** · 10-04-2017, 10:19 AM

Here is another Triumph in Germany but the price seems a bit high because of all the changed hardware Epiphone"Triumph"Archtop Gitarre in Schleswig-Holstein - Kiel | Musikinstrumente und Zubehor gebraucht kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen

**jzjazz** · 10-04-2017, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by fws6

Here is another Triumph in Germany but the price seems a bit high because of all the changed hardware Epiphone"Triumph"Archtop Gitarre in Schleswig-Holstein - Kiel | Musikinstrumente und Zubehor gebraucht kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen

Looks sweet, but indeed a pretty high price, without pickup... but I like the sunburst more

Contacted seller.

**Hammertone** · 10-04-2017, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

My first good guitar was an L50. Good choice.
If money is an object, consider also the L48. I recall, decades ago, I bought the L50, being told that the L48 was the same guitar but without some extra binding. I can't verify it for sure, but it may be the same sound and a little less money.

L-48 - laminated top plate and back plate
L-50 - carved spruce top, laminated back
L-4 - carved spruce top, laminated back, fancier trim/hardware

Originally Posted by docsteve

If you want a strong acoustic sound, look for Hofners, Framus and other German brands. I bought my Hofner in Berlin for 300 EUR, but that was some 10 years ago. ...

I agree - there are some excellent non-cutaway guitars to be found for much less money than their American counterparts, including ones with carved spruce tops, pressed spruce tops and laminated tops. There are always a few to be found on ebay.de.

**jzjazz** · 10-05-2017, 06:01 AM

The seller of the Triumph is pretty attached to his price

Do you think that's a normal-high price, or rather a inacceptable-high price - 1900 Euro inluding insured shipping? It doesn't have a pickup so 150E for the IR RC to come...

He claims that there are no cracks and he bought it from a luthier 4 years ago, I've asked for more detailed pictures.

**rabbit** · 10-05-2017, 06:27 AM

IK Multimedia | iRig Acoustic Stage - Advanced digital microphone system for acoustic guitar

Ridiculously cheap ($99) to give a try.

I'm interested but haven't yet pulled the trigger (other distractions in life.)

I did email them to discover that the microphone (not a piezo) has a .140" throat for top thickness.

Also, you can plug your mag. p/up into it & blend. Included is a special feature for
customizing the sound to a particular guitar.

Best of luck to you.

**rabbit** · 10-05-2017, 06:44 AM

Oops, wrong thread. Sorry.

**campusfive** · 10-06-2017, 11:18 AM

I enjoy L-50's from time to time, but unless you've found an especially good one, it's a pretty big leap in quality and sound to a Triumph or L-7. There are ton of beater Triumphs and L-7's around, and you can get them for decent prices if you keep looking.

Just remember a vintage dealer's sticker price is rarely what it actually sells for.
And remember when you see a guitar that's been sitting, unsold, for a very long time (years, even), that either it's priced way too high (scaring people off) or it's a clunker. But, never spend a ton of money on a guitar that you can't return if you're unsatisfied. Always get a 48-hour (at least) approval period.

**John A.** · 10-06-2017, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

I enjoy L-50's from time to time, but unless you've found an especially good one, it's a pretty big leap in quality and sound to a Triumph or L-7. There are ton of beater Triumphs and L-7's around, and you can get them for decent prices if you keep looking.

Just remember a vintage dealer's sticker price is rarely what it actually sells for.
And remember when you see a guitar that's been sitting, unsold, for a very long time (years, even), that either it's priced way too high (scaring people off) or it's a clunker. But, never spend a ton of money on a guitar that you can't return if you're unsatisfied. Always get a 48-hour (at least) approval period.

Case in point, this L7 CE: Vintage Gibson 1952 L7CE Hollow Body Electric Guitar Sunburst | Guitar Center [no pic's on the site at the moment, but there were before.]

has been hanging on the wall at the Manhattan Guitar Center for at least a year. I played it, and it sounds very nice acoustically, and plays fine, but it has some issues:

The McCarty pickguard/pup is warped and fits unstably on the guitar; the knobs are falling apart. It also has a weird connector that they didn't have the cable for, so I couldn't try it plugged in [I'd replace it with a repro or a floater]

The action was very low (though not buzzing), but the bridge looked like it was up pretty high. This could could indicate a sunken top (I don't have a good eye for this issue), which is probably stable given its age.

It's cosmetically pretty dinged up, and IIRC was missing some binding.

They're asking $4199 (about what one in much better condition would go for). I bet they'd take a LOT less (if I had the money I'd offer something under $3k and see what happens). GC has a 45-day unlimited return policy.

John