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This is the other side of the coin of course, some of these old 'classics' weren't quite as good as we like to remember them. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Originally Posted by Archie
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10-13-2009 03:00 AM
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No, Nostalgia is a thing of the past. Originally Posted by RAQ
But will it ever come back?
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10-13-2009, 10:46 AM #128Archie Guest
Last summer two friends and I took a motorcycle tour of Scotland. We rented a pair of Royal Enfield 500 c.c. singles. They were a lot of fun on the B roads, but not powerful enough to keep up with traffic on the motorways. We had some scary moments. I remember my BSA being quite powerful enough at the time but I've ridden a lot of bigger bikes since then (and there's a bit more of me to lug around now than there was then too).
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Here are links to pictures of my Honda racer (and a much younger me):
Honda Super Hawk 305cc engine/transmission, with a Yoshimura 5-speed, Harmon & Collins 350cc kit, H&C roller cam, Forgtrue 10:1 pistons, trick clutch plates (details elude me at this point), Yetman space frame and tank, Ceriani suspension, a custom-made four leading shoe front brake, fabricated seat pan and battery box. No fairing bubble at this point.
As raced:
Note the "Amalie" oil sticker -- the distributor was offering contingency money at one track, so we all slapped their logo on our bikes, never mind the Castrol R in the cases.
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Nice scoot, John ! Hard to remember a Super Hawk having enough giddy-up to be competitive but yours looks like the handling was WAY up there in performance ... beautiful frame. (Seems strange to see dual shocks on the rear now.)
I became a two-stroke convert, early on, remained one right up until I bought the KLX. Newer four-strokes were a revelation to me, especially the smooth torque delivery. I couldn't go back to a ring-ding now
cheers,
randy
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Dual shocks, drum brakes, four stroke, only 5 speeds (my Toyota has as many!), treaded tires, spoke wheels...yeah, it was pretty competitive ca. 1969.
I believe the Yamahas hit the scene in 1970.
But it was light -- I loaded it into my '57 Chev Carryall by lifting the front wheel onto the tail gate, then picking up the back wheel and rolling it inside. The Yetman frame basically attached to the top of the engine, located the steering head and swing arm pivot, and gave you a place to sit. Not much there. I don't think it weighed ten pounds.
Probably any new bike you could buy today would accelerate faster, have a higher top speed, get through corners faster -- but we thought we were riding real crotch rockets, never the less.
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It might be a little late to join in on this but here is my 2 cents worth on the subject of Epiphone Regents, korean guitars and plywood neck blocks.
I have a few korean guitars, three hollowbodies and two of them have plywood neck blocks and one has a two piece neck block but the pieces are solid blocks.
Now the two plywood blocks belong to korean made Gretsch's (a G5129 and a G3905) and both of these guitars feel and sound (despite some questionable build practices) great. Now this is a 'jazz guitar' forum I know but I can't play jazz (not good enough) but I do play play rocky, bluesy sort of things on my home recording projects and the single coil sound of these two guitars is just what I was looking for. Though before I bought each of these guitars, I spent a fair amount of time playing them (through a POD, which is what I do all my recording on. A POD and headphones so I couldn't hear how bad I was sounding to the outside world).
When the talk turns to build consistency, then these two may be good examples of a lack of such in korean guitars. My G5129, unlike almost all others I've seen has a fixed pin TOM instead of a rosewood floating bridge. And my G3905 is a real anomaly in that, either by design or because someone just forgot (!), there is absolutely no bracing for the top! My pal Jukebox (in another forum) said that one of the design weaknesses of this guitar was it's 1/4 inch too thick top. Though lucky for me the top is that thick because it is strong enough to resist the string pressure without support and this guitar sounds really nice acoustically because the top resonates so much (and though I worry about the top collapsing, the guitar is 9 years old and still very playable).
So these two guitars, despite the plywood, sound great as they are. As good as...? I can't compare because I don't have a MIJ Gretsch. I have an LP Standard, a '72 Strat and a Ric 360 as American built guitars. And all these guitars sound pretty different from each other. The Strat was the guitar I learned on so I like playing that and the Gretsches the most. The LP sounds terrific but I still can't get used to those big frets. The Ric, I just got a few days ago and am getting used to the feel. I guess I like small necks because I find it less comfortable than my preferred players but more comfortable than the LP.
The solid (sort of) neck block guitar is a Squier X-155 and I cannot make it sound like I would like it to nor have I ever really liked playing it. Which sounds a lot like the Emperor Regents I'm hearing about. It has the most 'jazz' sound of any of my guitars but I have never really liked it.
So I turned to this forum because I had gotten a pretty good sale price on an Emperor Regent and was considering it. Quite frankly, I only scratched on it for a minute or so, and just acoustically. I was interested because it had more acoustic sound than I was expecting but when I read all these comments about the pick up it gives me reason for thought.
As you can see from the above, I have a few guitars, and some pretty good ones at that and I have to ask myself, why would I buy another guitar that isn't going to make me (really) happy when I play it? Because I'm emotionally challenged and get my thrills from buying stuff? Not a good answer. Actually, in the last little while I bought the two Gretsches and the Ric and I was really pleased with the sound of all these guitars (like I said, I'm no jazz player) and thought that I might get 'lucky' again with the Regent. But I think the comments on this thread have led me to think otherwise.
So I will take a pass on the Epiphone and have patience and maybe in time, something more interesting will pass my way
(as an aside, I just missed out on a 1984 Les Paul Studio Custom that cost less than twice the asking price for the Regent! Though at least with a guitar like the Epiphone, you don't have to worry about counterfeits, but that's another story).
Sorry about the length of this but I do tend to go on...Last edited by bluenote23; 11-18-2009 at 04:02 PM.
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That was a very interesting discussion, thanks for sharing. A wise decision, in my opinion, good deals come along if one is willing to wait. (As a forum newbie, you probably didn't read my experiences two weeks ago on the two Heritages that came my way - one has to be ready to pounce on 'em - for sure there are others out there that WILL
)
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Bluenote23: lots of interesting a relevant points. I am probably more tolerant of Epiphones and other MIK copies than some of my fellow forum members, but then maybe I have been luckier with my Emperor too. It was on its way out when I decided to try the PAF conversion, but I rather like it now. I think it depends what you're after - I like your great comment 'I'm emotionally challenged and get my thrills from buying stuff' ... that sounds a bit too close to my buying patterns for comfort. But MIK copies have enabled me to explore types of guitars to an extent that I could never have done had I limited myself to the 'only Gibson is good enough' camp. I bought the Epi precisely because I wanted to give a 17" arctop and 'floater' a try, and still think its OK, if you're sure a 17" archtop is what you want to try. I have tried the Dearmond version of the X155 and that is the same size as the Epi Emperor (different pickup arrangement obviously) so that will give you some idea what it feels and plays like. If you're not sure that is what you want to try, then Randyc is right - it does no harm to wait because something else will come along. As for 'tending to go on', don't worry about that - you're amongst friends.
Last edited by RAQ; 11-18-2009 at 04:49 PM.
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That's the essential difficulty with Asian made copies -- we see 'em and the "Iwanna" gland starts secreting in our brain, or such remnants of same as we still have. I have regretted impulse buys for cheapos, but have never regretted waiting for a good 'un (or, in fact, jumping on a good 'un that jumped off the wall display and into my arms!). Originally Posted by randyc
Good deals come along if one is willing to wait. (As a forum newbie, you probably didn't read my experiences two weeks ago on the two Heritages that came my way - one has to be ready to pounce on 'em - for sure there are others out there that WILL)
"Instant gratification" describes the length of time you remain gratified.
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RAQ: MORE photos, please. Originally Posted by RAQ
Although I'm no longer a fan of the product (and remember that I once WAS), I still appreciate the ingenuity/craftsmanship that people exhibit to improve their instruments.
thanks,
randyc
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I really enjoy the exchanges on this forum, but I'm not practicing playing while I'm doing it of course. My excuse for all of this is that it's educational: I've tweaked necks, change pickups, swapped bridges, replaced tuners, rewired semis and blocked the trem on a MIM Strat ... I just love messing. I've just converted an Epi DOT to a trapeze tailpiece, rather than get rid of it. BUT, to give you some hope, remember that when push come to shove I bought a Gibson 137 and an American Standard Tele.
EDIT: PS - I agree though that if, as a result of all this fiddling with the Epi, I decided that a 17" archtop with 'floater' was THE guitar for me, then I would start looking around for a much better version. I'm certainly not saying (re your original post) that the Epi is as good as a Gibson, only that sometimes, and in some circumstances, an Epi makes more sense.Last edited by RAQ; 11-18-2009 at 05:41 PM.
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That brings your cumulative score up to 93. Originally Posted by RAQ
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lpd: I'd argue with your scoring practises. Lacking photos, RAQ gets only a 92 in my estimation. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
But seriously, guys, pictures really make this modification stuff so much more interesting. (Especially if they include before, in-process and after sequence.) Most of us have access to digital cameras (I borrow SWMBO's camera) and the remainder of the process isn't too hard, although I struggled with it initally !
cheers,
randyc
PS: kudos to lpd 'cause he DID have photos of his motorcycle !!!
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You're right. I overlooked that. Originally Posted by randyc
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I’ve looked through most of this thread, and gald to see it’s back on point, motorcycles and cars don’t do a lot for me, but can appreciate that they do for some.
Somebody mentioned that low end guitars used to be US made-Harmony, Kay, etc. Well, when I’ve looked for inexpensive guitars, I still look there, primarily to Harmony. Usually for less than a new MIK Epi, you can still find a vintage Harmony Patrician with a solid top, rosewood bridge and fingerboard (usually Brazilian). Does it have the shiny high end look of a new Emporer? No, but it was made by an experienced luthier with hide glue and a feel for the guitar. I’m not sure, but I think that the Monterey was also a solid top archtop, although I’m not sure about that, or others in the line. I also have a similar view of their Sovereign flattops. Easily, IMO, the equal of a similar vintage LG-1, for example, for lots less. Of course it doesn’t say Gibson on its headstock.
As to Epis themselves, I’ve never done more than casually play a recent vintage archtop in a store, but did purchase a Masterbilt flattop a few years ago, and for $400, I think it would be hard to find a better, or even equivalent, instrument. It was, however, made in China at the plant that Gibson built a few years ago and may have better overall quality control than other Far East plants. The only problem I have with it is that it could have been set up better, pretty high action that I’ve just never gotten around to adjusting-I’m still debating whether or not to put a metal nut on it and use it as a lap slide guitar
Just my two cents.
Brad
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Hear, hear! Originally Posted by brad4d8
I recently acquired a nice but lower-end Silvertone made by Harmony. I have read up on the history of Harmony--"the People's Guitar"--it's quite interesting. Around WW2 they were the largest manufacturers of guitars, churning out 500,000 a year or so. They also were the main manufacturers of ukeleles and sold a ton of them during the Uke craze of the 1920's, and during WW2 they were the main producers of violins, as the US was not importing German products.
Like many companies, they succumbed to foreign competition and bad management and were decimated in a merger/acquisition in the 1970's. Since last year, they have been producing new guitars, including replicas of classic models. To my eye, they look VERY nice, though they are a far cry from $59 in the Sears catalog.
Harmony Guitars | The Original Harmony Guitar Company, Inc. | Quality Guitars Since 1892
I am currently on the lookout for vintage Harmonys, Silvertones, etc.
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I'm a sucker for lots of knobs on an inexpensive gittar:
(Bonus: monster selector knob!)
But I could be lead astray with sliders, too:
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Originally Posted by brad4d8
I think we decided, at some point, that we were discussing shared values; and that these values manifest themselves in a number of forms - sometimes bikes, sometimes guitars; so although we appeared to drift off the subject we hadn't really drifted off the topic. At least that's my version of things.
As to the elderly archtops I spent some time hunting around for one, but had absolutely no luck at all (UK this was). I bought a mail-order-catalogue archtop in the 60's (think it might have been a Kay) and started pining for it 30 years after I sold it ( I needed the money). This is the main reason I hunted down a Godin 5th Ave as soon as they were announced. Got an Aria FA50 too, for reasons only Proust would understand. I'm still looking for an old archtop, but either they are not about or I never get to go to where they are.
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I don't quite understand the resurgence of popularity of those second-tier American guitars unless it's simply nostalgia ? Despite having turned from supporter to opposer of the MIC stuff, most Asian instruments are far better quality than those old Harmonys, Kays, Silvertones and the like.
I bought a Danelectro, new in 1961 and calling that thing a "guitar" was a stretch. I was given a full-size Harmony archtop that someone had spent a lot of time stripping the original finish and refinishing in natural. It looked OK, nothing special about the sound or the playability so I gave it to my wife's sister who also gave it away ...
I've never owned the other brands but I could safely say that I've played near 100 of them in different incarnations; friends, relatives, people that I jammed with, Army buddies and so forth, had these guitars. (Nobody could come up with the $60 for a new ES-125 or $200 for a new Strat or a Les Paul ... back then - just as now - people made decisions based strictly on cost without regard to other considerations.)
Those instruments were unmemorable except one: I met a guy in the Army that had a Harmony two-pickup archtop. The guitar was nothing special but he'd installed a Bigsby tailpiece on it. That was memorable because the Bigsby most likely cost more than the guitar.
Anyway, I appreciate the viewpoints of those who love the old instruments and also those who own and enjoy their MIK/MIC guitars. Neither is for me ... One of my Uncles still has an old black, 2 pickup Silvertone that he bought while in high school. Nostalgic, indeed, but I've never had the urge to pick it up and strum it.
Most of my objection to those inexpensive guitars came from the difficulty in playing them. One had to have fingers of steel to get three or four strings down simultaneously. Of course back then, the idea of adjusting ones guitar was unthinkable - and most of the cheap instruments didn't even have a truss rod ... after temperature/humidity "modified" the neck, we were at a loss as to what to do with the guitar.
Believe it or not, many people were reluctant to touch the little thumbwheels on the bridge, thinking that the folks at the factory had some special knowledge when setting the bridge height. Normal people didn't have the ability to make such sensitive adjustments. Of course, back then, we still believed everything that was printed/said in the news media. We still believed that our politicians were sincerely interested in our welfare.
So maybe I do "sort of" understand the nostalgia part of those old instruments ...
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Some of us were making the rhetorical point that a successful musical instrument has some unexpected convergences with other artifacts, and that one learns to discern quality in equivalent ways. Originally Posted by RAQ
Or we were just getting to know one another. Welcome to the discussion, Brad4d8.
BDLH, that's the definition of wretched excess.
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The Gibson ES-5 (The Switchmaster) has the same problem, but it looks classier: Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
BDLH, that's the definition of wretched excess.
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A guy here in town has one he bought new in 1953. He's retired now, but he ran an exterminator business for years (his sons have it now). When he came to my place to spray, he always asked me to get out my Country Gent. He drove around the county with photos of the Gibson in his truck. Come to think of it, he sounds a lot like us, only a bit older.
Speaking of Gibsons, I've spent the morning (once I got the cat home from the vet) cleaning and restringing my Les Paul Deluxe, and re-installing the pickguard, which the previous owner had removed. =sigh= Another good guitar about to go...but, if I don't play 'em, they need to be in the hands of someone who will.
Lester didn't last as long as Chester (1997-2009 vs 1982-1997) but both have been cherished instruments; my 335 does what I want done now, so it's on to some new loving owner.
As an aside, I think this whole "vintage" business is a crock, but I bought the Gretsch for a little over $400 and sold it for just over $3K; the Gibson cost me $750 and I expect at least $1.2K, so I guess there is some good to come of it all.
It will help fund a new Dobro. After 25 years of my existing one, I decided I no longer like the sound the way I used to. That one will be on the block (possible trade) also, along with the Classic '50s Precision. I may (repeat, may) get back down to a mere nine guitars and basses.
In memory of many great and enjoyable gigs, I will retain it as my user name. (Why is there no smilie for "wiping a tear from my eye and watching it drop into my beer?")
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Not for the first time I think I'm a step or two behind the discussion, but I got straight on to Google and had a look around for second-hand archtops - they were either really good quality classics, where I could never justify the expense; or affordable, but in doubtful states of repair. I suppose the playable quality of cheap guitars is the area of greatest improvement - a new cheap instrument being a better bet than an old cheap instrument (meaning an old instrument that was originally design as a budget/entry model). Having honed my skills lately it would be good to find/rescue a neglected archtop somewhere and get it back into use - I just haven't found one yet. But you're probably right this is nostalgia at work rather than common sense ... I'm not so sure nostalgia and common sense aren't mutually exclusive. Originally Posted by randyc
Last edited by RAQ; 11-19-2009 at 03:07 PM.
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Guilty as charged... Originally Posted by randyc
I like the antique look of the Silvertone and am fascinated by the history of the Harmony company. They were an American mass-marketing success story for quite a while.
I wouldn't argue these guitars stack up to quality vintage or modern instruments, though. The neck on this one is OK and the sound is good, though the action is a little too high for my tastes. (It would make a great slider...)
I used to have a Gibson ES-175, but for playability I prefer my Korean-made Epi Joe Pass.
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